Another BBC one <facepalm>

[NitroNine]

LGBTQ+ people 'feel threatened on London public transport' - naturally including the infamous conflation of “hate crimes” & “non-crime hate incidents” so readers can be Shocked & Dismayed by their dizzying rise & how such a small minority experience so much hate.

No comparative data provided, naturally, on the feelings/experiences of any other group.

Absolutely even now, even in London, same-sex couples have to be more cautious about PDAs (even holding hands, I mean) than opposite-sex couples. I don’t mean to dismiss that. The dreadful assault on a lesbian couple on a bus a few years ago must have (understandably) heightened anxiety. (Of course, some of the TQ+ have shown they have far less to fear 🤨)

It’s boggling the BBC continue to try to push the “most vulnerable” narrative (because we know who this story is really about) - & frankly insulting they considered this news. I demand a waterskiing budgie! There are probably more users of the London Transport Network who’ve felt threatened than not; & anyone brought up in London learns as a literal child [to try] not to draw attention. Some of us don’t have the luxury of opting out of what gets us targeted: visible disability aids; skin colour; & even, I’d argue, religious dress. Pronoun pins aren’t a requirement of being trans, but in many religious orders no “mufti” is owned other than nightwear. There is also a substantial difference between “a super-special version of a name badge” & part of how someone connects to God, expresses their faith, feels comfortable in themselves & around others, & in some cases carries out an explicit religious obligation.

The constant stream of stories like this is the news equivalent of EDI training that forgets about all the protected characteristics but one. Obviously I have sympathy for anyone who’s been assaulted on public transport (or anywhere else!) but this feeling of threat isn’t news & is, at least in part, manufactured. If you’re told everyone hates you & you’re about to be genocided, you will be fearful; you will feel threatened. Arguably it’s actively irresponsible of the BBC to further stoke those fears; especially with the warped stats.

Time to complain again?

I was just reading this too. It made me think of the rise in homophobic attacks around Clapham where the person in the story was punched. Genuine transphobia looks exactly like homophobia. It makes me so confused as to why so many who purport to be or support LGBTQ people spend so much energy opposing feminist meetings. Feminists have no connection to the people attacking gay people on the streets of south London.

The article I read before detailed the attempted murder of a woman by a man. It explicitly said that the man chose the victim partly because of his feelings about women. This, of course, wasn't a hate crime. Just the natural order of things.

I was on the overground earlier this year and a man got on dressed in a very feminine way, feminine haircut, makeup etc. Not in an overblown sterotype way, he was very fashionably dressed to be honest. I thought he looked great.

Not a clue how he identified. He didn't bother anyone, just sat there.

Immediately he was the subject of points, laughs, jeers from a couple of much bigger men on the other side of the carriage.

I can well understand how anyone who is gender non-comforming (trans or not) would be wary of using public transport.

We both got off at the next station and I wish I'd said something to him at the time, I still feel bad I didn't.

Have you never suffered harassment from men on public transport, Flickers? It's not nice, no. But it certainly isn't limited to males presenting in a feminine way.

Harrassment because you're a woman is no better or worse than harrassment because you're gay, lesbian, trans, or otherwise gender non-comforming.

I don't think we can say homophobia and transphobia aren't worth bothering with because women still suffer harrassment.

Don't quite get this. I'm gender non-conforming, but wary of using public transport because I'm a woman, not because of how I look.

A man got on dressed in a very feminine way, feminine haircut, makeup etc. Not in an overblown stereotype way, he was very fashionably dressed to be honest. I thought he looked great.

Not a clue how he identified.

You are, however, confident of his sex. That's interesting, as I think I remember you on other threads somewhat minimizing the fears of women who can also confidently identify the sex of others, and sometimes want privacy from males.

If I'm confusing you with someone else of a similar name, my apologies.

Ok, but your experience isn't everyone else's.

Some will be wary of using public transport because they're e.g. a man dressed as a woman, or a woman who's dressed alternatively.

I have previously pointed out that "we can always tell" is bollocks, if that's what you mean. In this case I certainly could tell, but that doesn't mean I could determine 100% of the time.

People are sometimes dicks. I really don't know that we can legislate this out of existence, tbh. There may be arguments for trying more 'be kind' type of shit in schools, although in practise this seems to be backfiring a bit, particularly because it acts differently on different sexes - women have 'be kind' ladled onto existing female socialisation that encourages doormattery, while boys take pride in rebuffing the bullshit and performative nastiness.

There are conversations to be had about social engineering, too.

I'm talking about people laughing at someone for wearing something they consider out of the norm, btw.

It's not nice to point and laugh. But this comes under 'manners' more than it comes under 'hate crime'.

Harrassment because you're a woman is no better or worse than harrassment because you're gay, lesbian, trans, or otherwise gender non-comforming.

I don't think we can say homophobia and transphobia aren't worth bothering with because women still suffer harrassment.

I didn't say it was, but the point of this OP, on the feminist board, is to point out that harassment isn't unique to LGBT people and other people also feel threatened on public transport, plus a general feeling of scaremongering.

From the OP:

Obviously I have sympathy for anyone who’s been assaulted on public transport (or anywhere else!) but this feeling of threat isn’t news & is, at least in part, manufactured. If you’re told everyone hates you & you’re about to be genocided, you will be fearful; you will feel threatened. Arguably it’s actively irresponsible of the BBC to further stoke those fears; especially with the warped stats.

I didn't say it was, but the point of this OP, on the feminist board, is to point out that harassment isn't unique to LGBT people and other people also feel threatened on public transport, plus a general feeling of scaremongering.

Ok, but the article is about LGBT people specifically.

This feels like exactly the same thing certain groups do whenever there's an article about domestic violence, for example. It's in the same vein as "but what about the men???".

I'm not denying other groups not in the LGBT circle experience harrassment, but I don't see how an article specifically focussing on that aspect takes away from women experiencing harrassment.

The last time we caught a train we saw a bloke dressed like one of those anime schoolgirls;very short pleated skirt,knee high socks,the whole works.

He was a big,very hairy bloke and he looked ridiculous but no one took a blind bit of notice of him.

But how do you know if his cross-dressing is a fetish or not? Isn't he involving all passengers in his fetish and they didn't consent to it?

I remember being on the tube, random man asked me "hi, what's the time?" So I made the mistake of telling him.

He then decided it was ok for him to sit in the seat right next to me, ask me where I was going, asked me where I lived, touched my leg a lot. I had to get off at the wrong stop very suddenly just to get away from him, and planned it so the doors were just closing before I got up so he couldn't follow me! Waited at the wrong stop for 5 minutes for the next tube.

Harassment on public transport takes all forms. The slightly creepy, sinister unwanted conversation, to actually being punched or worse. Point is, perpetrators are overwhelmingly male. Victims are more of a mixed bag, female or male, elderly, disabled, gay, trans, and other macho or intoxicated males getting punched or worse. It's wrong for the BBC to pedal the line this one group is the most vulnerable compared to other groups.

Statistically, this random man dressed in gender non-conforming clothes mentioned above, is just as likely to turn aggressive than any other bloke.
It's blokes who are the problem. Doesn't matter how they're dressed.

Well if it was a fetish he was keeping it to himself.

Consent is irrelevant when it comes to what members of the public are thinking privately in their own heads, and also irrelevant when it comes to how other members of the public are dressed. I can't bar someone from the train because I don't consent to how they're dressed and I suspect them of having dirty thoughts. That's a bizarre and wholly ridiculous notion, although I would love it if I could ban see through leggings and teenage boys with their trousers round their thighs showing off their boxers.

We don't have thought crimes in this country and we don't police how people dress. Yes, there are some exceptions for offensive clothing e.g. the man who was recently arrested for wearing a shirt mocking Hillsborough at a Liverpool game. But not for if someone is wearing normal clothes.

That is such a stretch so say that his cross-dressing may have been a fetish. Is it ok to be pointed and jeered at on the off chance it might be?

As no one knows if it was, the assumption should be he's just dressing in clothes that are considered feminine.

Anyway the thread is being taken over by the story of this cross-dressing man when the actual article posted in the OP is about someone being punched, which is an actual crime. The photo of Ash, who is identified using male pronouns, is very obviouly female. Not some guy with a made-up fetish.

It's wrong for the BBC to pedal the line this one group is the most vulnerable compared to other groups.

Forgive me if I've missed it, but where exactly does the BBC suggest LGBT etc are the most vulnerable?

It's all a bit fur coat and no knickers (again) which is the hallmark of virtue signalling shallow veneer stuff and not actual practical action.

The actions needed, as Arthurbella says up thread, is to deal with people being dicks to anyone who looks a bit different. Plus ca change, even animals do this to any member of the group who looks different. It's an issue for a large number of groups, and it's about the behaviour/manners and not about the individual groups.

This is just another excuse to push a lot of 'most vulnerable, specially oppressed, more important/only one characteristic of value in the EA' claptrap under the guise of 'here's the answer we want to make society do what we say!' (and we just found a bit of evidence we can use to leverage it with). As opposed to 'here is the problem for all these groups, what deals with the root issue'.

'Hate crime' was and is a lot of unhelpful bollocks, it's caused more problems and done nothing to deal with the ones it was created to help with.

That's awful and a bit surprising.

I was in bus queue last weekend very small town - bus 40 minutes late leaving due to driver not turning up at change over - man dressed like Bet Lynch in queue not one kid, teen, OAPs nor men or women middling years or any age batted an eye lid.

I've done a fair bit of travel by public transport and its been rare I've had issues - other than seat arguments/delays/excessive noise - when I have had issues mainly other passengers have stepped in for me.

You do get dicks even walking around in public being female can get negative comments from random dickheads - doing it with young kids also attract fair few - and they are upsetting.

Being assaulted though that is bad and as PP said a crime- I do wonder if there's been an uptick post covid and I have noticed poorer behavior generally on public transport and in public areas more generally and more issues with transport services which does tend to wind up some people - I also wonder if less visible police/staff emboldens some behavior.

Harassment on public transport takes all forms. The slightly creepy, sinister unwanted conversation, to actually being punched or worse. Point is, perpetrators are overwhelmingly male. Victims are more of a mixed bag, female or male, elderly, disabled, gay, trans, and other macho or intoxicated males getting punched or worse. It's wrong for the BBC to pedal the line this one group is the most vulnerable compared to other groups.

This is very true - though many people stepping in for me over decades were unknown to me men as well.

I can only think of one occasion where a woman caused a problem in nearly 30 years of public transport journey that I've seen or had and it wasn't directed at me but at DH waiting for me and she was trying to use her bloke with her as a weapon she was miffed her train was late and looking for a fight and picked on random man at platform.

'Tis the season when all the sealions wash ashore and flap their flippers aimlessly on the beach, making noises with each other in anticipation of feeding time.
Is it true they once used to be trained to balance balls on their noses in the circus?
Or is it just another misinformed point of view?
And what is the difference between a seal and a sealion aside from a Kiss from a Rose, anyway?

I wouldn’t complain about this article. I have no doubt they feel harassed. But I would like a survey of women and of men (not in these groups) seeing if they felt the same as a comparison. I would have thought mums of young men are particularly worried about their sons on the tube.

Times I have felt intimidated have always been by men. I never reported them. Looking back, a lot could have been worthy of a police phone call (flashing whilst ‘playing’, groping, slowing down in vehicles and shouting, following).

Over many years most women and girls have experienced a LOT of unwelcome attention from men. This is the problem and I suspect Ash was attacked because she was a woman. Nothing new. Which is not to say gay men and lesbians are also at risk. However I know of at least one example where a tran identified man was arrested tens of times for his behaviour on public transport. I also read about men ejaculating on women…I don’t think they would do that to a man however he dresses. It is rarely women who are the perpetrators. What is the point of the article?