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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another BBC one <facepalm>

55 replies

NitroNine · 16/11/2023 09:18

LGBTQ+ people 'feel threatened on London public transport' - naturally including the infamous conflation of “hate crimes” & “non-crime hate incidents” so readers can be Shocked & Dismayed by their dizzying rise & how such a small minority experience so much hate.

No comparative data provided, naturally, on the feelings/experiences of any other group.

Absolutely even now, even in London, same-sex couples have to be more cautious about PDAs (even holding hands, I mean) than opposite-sex couples. I don’t mean to dismiss that. The dreadful assault on a lesbian couple on a bus a few years ago must have (understandably) heightened anxiety. (Of course, some of the TQ+ have shown they have far less to fear 🤨)

It’s boggling the BBC continue to try to push the “most vulnerable” narrative (because we know who this story is really about) - & frankly insulting they considered this news. I demand a waterskiing budgie! There are probably more users of the London Transport Network who’ve felt threatened than not; & anyone brought up in London learns as a literal child [to try] not to draw attention. Some of us don’t have the luxury of opting out of what gets us targeted: visible disability aids; skin colour; & even, I’d argue, religious dress. Pronoun pins aren’t a requirement of being trans, but in many religious orders no “mufti” is owned other than nightwear. There is also a substantial difference between “a super-special version of a name badge” & part of how someone connects to God, expresses their faith, feels comfortable in themselves & around others, & in some cases carries out an explicit religious obligation.

The constant stream of stories like this is the news equivalent of EDI training that forgets about all the protected characteristics but one. Obviously I have sympathy for anyone who’s been assaulted on public transport (or anywhere else!) but this feeling of threat isn’t news & is, at least in part, manufactured. If you’re told everyone hates you & you’re about to be genocided, you will be fearful; you will feel threatened. Arguably it’s actively irresponsible of the BBC to further stoke those fears; especially with the warped stats.

Time to complain again?

tube gv

LGBTQ+ people 'feel threatened on London public transport'

A survey says the community in London faces regular abuse as one passenger tells his story.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-67429132

OP posts:
CroccyWoccy · 17/11/2023 09:24

what is being discussed here is how the BBC often seems to make incorrect inferences from individual data points that support incorrect conclusions, and then publicise those incorrect/unevidenced conclusions as though they were facts.

To be honest I don't see much of that discussion - and I don't see anything at all in the original article that supports that argument. I DO see people trivialising the experiences of LGBTQ+ people and esposing victim-blaming arguments that simply wouldn't be tolerated if used against women.

I do understand that there's a wider point about the extent to which, when it comes to debates about conflicts between women's rights and trans rights, that arguments about the health and safety fears of trans people can be used as a tactic to shut down debate. That doesn't however mean that there is any justification at all for supressing valid evidence about the vulneratbilities that LGBTQ+ people experience.

When it comes to safety in shared spaces like public transport there simply isn't any conflict between women and trans people - the issues raised in the original article apply equally to women. We ALL deserve to be able to travel safely, to have reports of harassment and abuse treated seriously and with compassion. We should be united on this - not trivalising other people's experiences.

NitroNine · 19/11/2023 08:07

MN had a funny five & (well, rather more than five…) & this thread has only just reappeared in my threads I’m on.

Thank you to the posters who, in my absence, explained about the power differential between men & women meaning no, this isn’t just like a man complaining about a news piece on women; reiterated my point from the OP about this not being about a single article but the overarching narrative (&, you know, the harm said narrative does to vulnerable trans people); &c.

As I said in the OP, the quoted stats on hate crimes are inaccurate. That is because - feck knows why - “non-crime hate incidents” are rolled in with them. TRAs have made a concerted effort to report everything they conceivably could as a NCHI; & multiple police forces have actively encouraged this. We are talking “I saw a sticker I didn’t like” goes in along with someone being battered. No other group reports in that way; so while some NCHIs may be recorded, there aren’t many & unfortunately they’re often brought in as evidence when something does meet threshold as an indictable offence. Simply footnoting the stats would provide clarity; instead a meteoric rise is presented. The police are of course partly to blame there, but with their ideas on record keeping (why record an offender’s sex? let’s hand over all our addresses to dissident Republicans - our handful of Catholic Officers can just take their guns to Mass, it’ll be grand) that’s hardly a shocker.

The actual report admits their “over 600” respondents were mostly white males. So a minuscule unrepresentative sample - but they’ve still gone on to make recommendations on the basis of what they found out. They’ve made their own stats meaningless when they try to look at compounding factors eg disability - opening an initial survey more widely & then following up with those who ID’d as LGBTQ would have provided helpful comparative data & helped unpick which vulnerability (as it were) is at play. (Almost certainly would have provided a larger sample size, too.) The report authors utilise the highly offensive term “transmisogyny” - the clue is literally in the name - & not only do they for some reason drag in people with DSDs, they do so using the term “intersex” & give an inaccurate definition. The definition they provide is one used by TRAs to claim having PCOS makes one “intersex”. “Gender assigned at birth” is of course used incorrectly too 🙄

”We need to do more research because we didn’t make the best use of our funding this go round…” Maybe they could instead look at another vulnerable group, or anything else; & within that do ticky boxes at the start about your sex & if you have a gender identity. That way the experiences of the LGBTQ community can be captured within the research, which is important. Just as it’s important to try to capture as much of London’s hugely varied demographic as is possible.

In the introduction to the report, it says that research in 2022 “identified that certain transport users were at greater risk of victimisation than others”. One would naturally assume that this research is a result of those findings. No. If it were, this report would be about the “young people, women, BAME and disabled transport users [who] were at the greatest risk of victimisation”. You have to question how the decision was made not to focus on any of those groups; & indeed why the introduction contains a phrase that will, unless you have read the previous research, make you think LGBTQ people are at most risk of being victimised on public transport in London 🤨

Some of the report recommendations are excellent - notably, encouraging signposting by transport operators, the Met & BTP to specific resources for LGBTQ victims. But much of it they’ve had to stretch to make it about LGBTQ people. They’ve also already committed to measures like not leaving people stranded - it’s padding, basically. The ever-popular “everyone must swear allegiance to the progress pride flag” crops up, naturally. (No, it does not literally say that. Just my wee joke about the very clear subtext.) And I realise I have heavily stressed this point, but I am absolutely staggered by “yeah, we did this research instead of research into the groups we actually identified as most vulnerable; & now we want to do MORE research into this same group”.

(For anyone interested, London Travel Watch’s assorted research is available here & it is - unsurprisingly, given it comes from the Mayor’s office - quite a mixed bag. They’ve upped their out & design over the last couple of years, presumably, in part, because if you’re releasing that kind of report with a push for external people to read it you don’t want it looking like GCSE coursework.)

OP posts:
Zodfa · 19/11/2023 08:51

Certain people (e.g. women, ethnic minorities, people with obvious disabilities) are at more risk of violence because of who they are, we don't have to minimise that.

But some people are at risk because of what they do, for example their choices in how to dress. Gender nonconformity (and nonconformity in general) puts people in danger regardless of their "identity". I'm not convinced trans women are necessarily vastly more in danger than any other men dressed in markedly unusual clothes.

I expect that being a gender-nonconforming woman puts you at a level of a risk higher than that of most gender-conforming women. I have discovered that the level of bullying and aggression I receive in public seems to tie quite strongly to which coat I'm wearing. Even little things can make a big difference.

Tinysoxxx · 19/11/2023 14:27

I noticed when I had a different hairstyle as a student, security guards would follow me round.

HoneyButterPopcorn · 19/11/2023 16:01

I’m dying to know what the haircut was!

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