Emma Barnett interviews Endometriosis South Coast Steph Richards and Trustee Jodie Hughes

[ChristinaXYZ]

You can listen here - it starts around the 22 minute mark.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001scsj

SR: I think that we’re all brought in the world to try and well when we leave it to make the world a better place. I’m passionate around feminism, er, and interested in…initially you were talking about the prison’s minister, er, that’s an area that I get quite deeply involved in and I’m really pleased that you brought up about no birth behind bars, Emma, because that’s something I’m really passionate around. But really, lots of women shouldn’t be in prison, they should actually be in women’s centres and I don’t mean to go off track immediately…
Umm, I'm an activist, that's what I do. I'm a human rights activist and I cover various subjects going around, er feminism, and when Jodie offered me this position it came out of the blue, I really didn't… it was over a cup of coffee, I really didn't expect it at all and I said immediately yes, I would do it.

EB: You said immediately yes. So you had no reservations about taking the role on?

SR: No, none whatsoever.

EB: I find that interesting because for this sort of condition where you as a transwoman will know that you can't have unless you're born with a womb, you may have had some reservations, as a man may have had some reservations, about taking on and being the face of a charity that is for women.

SR: Ah, okay. But by that analogy should the CEO of Shelter be living in a tent?

EB: You can make that argument but there is a very particular situation with women's health that is different to homelessness, er around the diagnosis times it takes for this particular condition which is severely underfunded and the fact that the women that you are serving which you both obviously care greatly about – I'm not questioning that – have to feel comfortable coming to the organisation and talking to the people there. So I find it interesting that you had absolutely no reservations about that.

SR: No, because I’m a feminist.

JH: And to be fair, Emma, every single person that we support, are in support of this decision. Every single person that is involved in our charity and lives in our area have been in support of this. The hate has come from mainly other countries and a lot of it is/are from transphobes.

EB: “A lot of it’s from transphobes”. Would you consider yourself, Steph, a trans activist, ‘cause there's two strands of criticism when I've been reading the messages that have been coming in this morning – and there's also some of those who don't have an issue with it, I just want to make that point because of what you just said as well. But there's another issue about you being a trans activist. Are you a trans activist?

SR: I cover… Yes I’m the CEO of a trans organisation, that's true…

EB: Can someone who isn’t trans… just a quick one, if I can, can someone who isn't trans be the CEO of a trans organisation?

SR: Yes, of course they can.

EB: Has that ever happened?

SR: Well there’s hardly any trans organisations.

EB: There are quite a few. I wonder do you feel as a trans person you could be fairly represented by someone who isn't trans? It's a very specific situation. It's far less common than homelessness, to go against your previous example; do you feel someone could do that?

SR: Well they do, you know, there was Nancy Keely [sic] who was CEO of Stonewall.

EB: Stonewall’s not just a trans organisation, I asked specifically about trans. It represents a whole lot of other people which is why potentially it's had a big row.

SR: Umm, ultimately if someone's passionate around a cause, which I am around endometriosis, then I think I most certainly can. I’m very…

EB: Okay, you're generalising, let…let me be clearer and I'll give you the full chance to respond. With your campaigning history, of which there are records of it online, and some of the things that you feel very passionate about – no one's calling that into question – there is a concern that as a trans activist now running, being the CEO of an endometriosis charity for women, that you will not preserve the importance of things like the word “woman” and that experience, because in your statement on X – which is what Twitter used to be called – 10% you say, of those assigned female at birth, suffer from this awful disease. Is the word you're looking for there “woman”?

SR: Ah. I look at woman but I also look at the issue of transmen and non-binary people. You know, there's something like 5000/5500 transmen who has endometriosis who probably feel absolutely – that’s in the UK – that feels rather left out. There’s also non-binary people and…

EB: But the vast majority are women.

SR: Yes of course the vast majority but does that mean we should leave behind transmen, Emma?

EB: Absolutely not the case. The charity can more than cater – unless it’s a specialist charity and you want to go down that particular route, you tell me – can more than cater for it, but that's what I'm trying to explain to you. There’s two different arguments. There’s the argument that you don't have to be the same as your service user to represent them – you’ve made that argument, there are countless examples – but there is a different argument about your specific appointment, Steph, which is a concern that as a trans activist, as someone who has been accused of using inflammatory language in the past such as saying the word “terf” at people who are also feminists, that you are not the right person to represent a women's charity.

SR: No. So, the term “terf” can be seen by some, er, as a slur, and others actually embrace it as being something really positive.

EB: Just to say for our listeners, trans-exclusionary radical feminist. I accept it could be taken in different ways but could you just… I'll let you continue to respond to that point.

SR: Umm, well I think that really sums it up at the end of the day. I was brought into Endometriosis South Coast to raise the awareness of endometriosis full stop. And also to raise the profile of Endometriosis South Coast. It’s pretty amazing that in five days I’ve achieved that and the vehicle that’s done that is transphobia.

EB: Do you really think you’ve achieved it for the women who are sitting at home in a lot of pain…

SR: Well no, but people are talking about it…

EB: They’re not talking about endometriosis. Nobody suddenly understood the disease any more or committed to any more funding, done anything to help with diagnosis times… they're talking about whether somebody who is a trans activist can understand them in their position. You said all your service users are happy – I don't know, have you committed to polling in the last five days to know that?

SR: Umm, I’ve not really looked, I’ve received so much hate…

EB: Well let… Jodie, how can you know all of your service users are happy?

JH: Because the service users are engaging in the support group and are telling us that they are happy. Where we actually told everybody that Steph was going to be CEO was at an event, everybody was in massive support of that, umm, it was a very very very positive event. And then literally the last two days I haven't been able to turn my computer on because of the hate. I have been told I should be burned alive, which is not okay, just because of the appointment of somebody. We are… all of the trustee board suffer with endometriosis. We never want to take away anybody’s pain, never want to take away the/anybody's feelings of what they're going through. Literally this is… it will be still be me fronting the charity, I will be the face of the charity, Steph is here to do the running of the day-to-day.

EB: Do you regret this appointment?

JH: Absolutely not.

EB: Even though it has led to the conversation that we have been having as opposed to about endometriosis?

JH: I'm really really devastated that I'm not on here talking about endometriosis and my PhD work and…

EB: You can come back, you can come back and do that at a newsy time – we've done a lot of discussions on that and Woman's Hour really – I don't think you can say wouldn't do that. But today the discussion isdifferent because of your decision with your trustees.

JH: And yeah, to be honest if we're having the conversation – if we're having a difficult conversation – somebody has to have the difficult conversation.

EB: I specialise in them but I'm trying to… I'm trying to understand whether you think that you are… just with that statement, “10% of those assigned female at birth” to come back to you, Steph, suffer from this awful disease. Why not say women?

SR: Because within Endometriosis South Coast we use the word “everyone”.

EB: You don't use the word “women” as an endometriosis charity.

SR: I'm quite happy to use the word “woman”. I certainly understand the concerns that sometimes language go too far…

EB: “You’re happ…?” Sorry, just let me … you're happy to use the word “woman” but you're not going to use it when describing in a tweet about your appointment and in this new role, you're not going to use it when discussing endometriosis?

SR: I’m happy to use the word “woman”. While I appreciate that the vast majority of endometriosis affects women you probably also know, Emma, that there's 29 cases of endometriosis which has been found in men.

EB: Twent…twenty-nine?

SR: Yes, that’s my understanding. Jodie – you’re the expert…

EB: Sorry, do you not see that by even bringing this up you could be accused of devaluing the female experience which is why this is such a specific example of women’s health?

SR: But Emma, you're pushing the issue. The bottom line is…

EB: I'm asking a question…

SR: Well at the end of the day I fully understand that women, er, by a vast majority, er, suffer from endometriosis, but I don't think it's fair that we turn round and we ignore that there are some transmen and non-binary people. They shouldn't…

EB: Nobody’s saying that. That's whataboutery. I’m saying, do you not see by even in your first interview on Woman's Hour, raising this about men and about those who don't call themselves women, that you are already becoming a figure who is a trans activist at the head of a women's charity?

JH: The inclusive language is something that we've been doing for the past three years in our organisation.

EB: I don't doubt that, but you…

JH: And that was my decision as a cis heterosexual woman…

EB: Yup

JH:…to make the language inclusive. We have always used “people with endometriosis”, “individuals with endometriosis”…

EB: But they’re not “people with endometriosis” are they, they’re women. What's the issue with the word “woman”?

JH: We had…

EB: You have to have a womb, Steph [actually she’s talking to JH here]. You have to…

JH: You don’t have to have a womb. You do not have to have a womb to have endometriosis!

EB: You have to have been born as a biological woman, with the ingredients of being a woman inside you…

JH: No, you don’t!...

EB: … to suffer from this disease because of the way that tissues like the womb lining moves around the body.

JH: No (laughs). Endometriosis is a systemic inflammatory condition. We need to move away from the gynaecological side of things because you don't have to be born with a womb to have it.

EB: You don’t have to always be born with a womb but predominantly you are, and then you have to have the equipment around that. These are facts.

JH: (laughing) They are not facts!

EB: They are alternative facts!? I don’t follow.

JH: So endometriosis is cells that are similar to those that line the womb, meaning you don’t have …it’s not a reproductive disorder. It being seen as a gynaecological disorder maybe is the reason why for the last 200 years research and medicine isn’t progressing.

EB: So we've got to rebrand something that men can have to be taken seriously…

JH: I’m not saying rebranding…

EB: No, let me finish this – to be taken seriously by the male system of medicine. Just a final question to you, Steph. You say you’re going to carry on in the role. Jodie you've done enormous good work for those around you and you obviously want to keep doing it. Do you think, Steph, after this conversation and conversations like it, you can be good in the role?

SR: Well, I’ll allow the trustees of Endometriosis South Coast to deal with that one. Ultimately they appointed me and they can fire me.

EB: Steph Richards, Jodie Hughes, thank you very much for your time.

[Ends]

Thanks for the transcript Mmm, good work, both you and Emma. And sorry for my part in the derail - Bunbury duly noted!

Blimey that was fighty from Emma!

Not sure why you are saying be kind when you are trying to bully maltravers.

I heard here say it on the podcast and that's why I don't like her. It has nothing to do with TRA (though there have been Some horribly transphobic remarks on this thread that mmhq have fortunately deleted)

SR: No. So, the term “terf” can be seen by some, er, as a slur, and others actually embrace it as being something really positive.

So, when Steph or an associate uses the word 'terf' it's clearly meant as a slur as the ones who use it really positively are othered.

Thanks for the transcript @Mmmnotsure

It’s often speculated that upper and middle class women can fail to see the threat to women’s boundaries and spaces from gender identity ideology because they feel they don’t have to worry about ending up in prison, or needing NHS care or women’s crisis shelters. And I’ve often found that Women’s Hour has treated the topic of TRAs’ effect on women’s rights very dismissively but on this subject that wasn’t the case - perhaps it was because this was a subject that Emma could very much relate to on a personal level as being an issue women face and her experience allowed her to a see the unfairness in what happened.

Any thoughts??

You’re welcome, cake

Excellent- looking forward to catching up with this tomorrow.

Do you not think it is possible that you misinterpreted what Emma was saying though? It does seem highly unlikely that her meaning was what you took it to be. I guess we need to go to the source, e.g. a link to the podcast to be able to understand fully. I think that is all that people are meaning.

Thank you for this epic effort of transcription!

Thank you @Mmmnotsure. A brilliantly accurate transcript that captures the ditheryness and then the belligerence in Steph's responses. I look forward to reading it thoroughly.

I’m so full of admiration for Emma’s calm and methodical line of questioning. The centring of womanhood in the condition was at the core of the discussion, and the pathetic introduction of ‘men with endometriosis’ really skewered the two guests.

I think @RoyalCorgi makes her point really well, about this minnow organisation, but at the same time mission creep is very real in advocacy circles. Say Steph successfully gets a seat on a regional group, or a task force, suddenly there’s a tacit acceptance of (her/his) bona fides, and it becomes increasingly difficult to root out this bad-faith participant. This is a real risk, and shining a national spotlight can arrest it.

In the bigger picture, the charitable status and the highly questionable tenets of the PhD research (Jodie’s assertions seem wild when taken in isolation) would really make you wonder how the hell this ha’penny organisation has any credence at all.

Say Steph successfully gets a seat on a regional group, or a task force, suddenly there’s a tacit acceptance of (her/his) bona fides

Or that Jo or Steph leverages the existence of the charity to register as a stakeholder for NICE guidelines about the diagnosis and management (treatment) of endometriosis for use in the NHS. That would include the recommendations for the diagnostic pathways. Ditto for registering in a similar manner for NHS specialised commissioning services for women's health (or would that speciality disappear in this brave new world?).

And build on that presence in a national guidelines committee for consensus statements or guidelines in international organisations dedicated to endometriosis and adenomyosis or, more widely, women's health.

This is how the revision of DSM happened…

This is similar to how some parents and people in the arena of autism and ADHD feel that activists/self-diagnosed people are appropriating the bulk of the research/services money to the needs of themselves and other high-functioning people and away from those who need research or services most.

Capture the research, clinical guidelines and healthcare regulatory or commissioning organisations and, as WPATH shows, you can achieve truly eye-watering things.

Jo Bartosch has published and article in Spiked.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/11/16/why-is-a-militant-trans-activist-running-a-womens-health-charity/

Yes, I particularly noted (apart from enjoying EB’s increasingly WTFness of tone) the self-centeredness of Steph’s reply re the question of whether the service users were happy -
“I’ve not really looked, I’ve received so much hate.”
and the part where the mask and the tone slipped a bit –
“Emma, you're pushing the issue.”

Steph repeatedly uses the phrase “I’m passionate around”: here these things are feminism, birth behind bars, and endometriosis. It is an odd way of putting it. It does beg the question as to what form Steph’s being “passionate around” these entirely female things actually takes.

The BBC have apparently issued a statement ‘This was a fair and robust interview and both Steph and the charity’s chair, Jodie Hughes, were given the opportunity to address this criticism in full. Such discussions elicit strong reactions from all sides on social media.’

Updated Mail story
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12758137/BBC-defends-fair-robust-Womans-Hour-interview-host-Emma-Barnett-faced-pile-trans-activists-challenging-transgender-CEO-endometriosis-charity-not-using-word-woman.html

@Mmmnotsure

@Boiledbeetle Lovely flowers, thank you!

Well, that’s actually a relief because a) the BBC are not good at airing stories of women suffering from GI ideology in the first place and b) they didn’t throw Emma to the wolves for robust questioning from her position of first hand experience of the issue under discussion.

Did you notice that Jodie says she's been told she should be burned alive?

I can't help but wonder who might wish to inflict that punishment on her, a punishment for witches. It seems extremely unlikely to me that it's a non-believer in gender identity ideology - it's just not what we'd do or say.

Thanks for the transcription.

It’s like having an atheist Pope or a flat earther in charge of NASA.