Teaching gender identity in schools

[LadyHester]

DH is a governor in a local secondary school. Today he went on a learning walk, which included a visit to a Y10 Ethics class where the children were being told that being a ‘girl’ or a ‘boy’ was not something that could be determined at birth.
Is this even legal?

I think you will find that in my post at 21:45 I said it was a social construct.

So do I as floor to ceiling toilets mean my Dd could have a seizure and no one would know. That’s why she could still go to her comp - they had single sex toilets with door gaps.

Its discriminatory. And also more dangerous as sexual assaults go up in mixed sex toilets. Safeguarding needs visibility.

Sorry @Tinysoxxx in my school the single sex toilets have stall doors, with gaps. The mixed sex have floor to ceiling, I realise it read wrong.

@Pieceofpurplesky Some children who struggle with single sex toilets or pronoun use have very private reasons for that. They might not be able to use mixed-sex toilets due to sexual abuse or struggle with pronouns because they have neurological problems. (Seizures have already been mentioned). Their voices will not be heard in a class discussion.

I know a child who no longer attends an afternoon acitivity, because her pronoun use was aggressively corrected several times by a child who had changed pronouns three times in the space of several months. The child who struggled with pronouns has severe neurological problems.

Just because trans activists regularly proclaim trans people to be the "most vulnerable" in society does not make this statement true. There are highly vulnerable girls and women who are being silenced and whose lives are made even harder by the demands of this ideology.

Why would you think gender-critical children would revert to name calling but trans-ideology believing ones not?

@onlytherain I don't think that. And nowhere did I say that. I am not sure why I am getting a hard time here as this was not about my opinions but rather how my lesson went where all children were allowed to openly talk - and there were children on both sides of the argument - you are putting words in to my mouth. Nobody was allowed to name call or be nasty to anyone. Whatever their belief.

The school I work in is an SEMH heavy school and am fully aware of issues that are faced - hence the range of toilets where I work. The high number of autistic children in class today wanted to talk. There was only one child who didn't join in the discussion and that was for a completely different reason. Everyone else spoke as they know that my classroom is a non judgemental safe space.

My personal opinion actually aligns to most of you on this board but not as extreme.

That's what I was thinking. Why should women be kind to men to think they're women?

*men who think, that should say

I am going to sleep!
@TheSpikySpinosaurus it was a classroom filled with 14 year old kids, none of whom were trans. Nobody was silenced, everybody spoke and they knew to be kind and not say mean things. I teach the children that a good debate should not be about hurling insults but about being strong with opinions and to back them up.

They were kids

I always used to say this when I taught sex ed and certain biology topics. Also the rules were nothing personal was to be discussed.

It works both ways. To be honest listening to some stories it would protect the biological realists.

@Pieceofpurplesky I don't think I put words into your mouth: "A couple did have gender critical views and were able to express their thoughts without resorting to name calling. It can be done you know."

I slightly struggle with your view of things because you assume that all children feel comfortable voicing their opinions; that there is a level playing field. The current climate is one of aggressive opposition to gender-critical views. There are reasons we have a "free speech tzar" now. My children are highly aware of this climate. It is great that the autistic children in your class wanted to talk but I doubt children who have experienced sexual abuse would feel free to explain why they find single sex toilets important.

I do feel it is important to have these discussions but the general consensus seems to be that only trans kids need to be protected when in fact there is probably a greater number of severely traumatised children, children with health issues and certain religious children who also need to be protected.

They are born male or female. So boy or girl. End off.

Most of the kids have no issues, but all said you couldn't change sex but you could gender.

Did you correct them on this point? Gender is externally imposed, so it can't be changed. You should be teaching them that it is an error to think that people 'have' a gender which can be chosen or changed.

This is true

single sex toilets must be there, but that doesn’t mean there can’t also be accessible toilets for any gender

if it did, then many existing buildings wouldnt have compliant Disabled toilet provision

*Pieceofpurplesky"· Yesterday 23:37

I actually don't care if people believe me or not, as I am a grown up!

You evidently do care, as you are trying to argue your case. The inference I make from your earlier post is: "I know, but do you? Ho, you can't tell me, can you? I'm not going to explain it for you!"

At least, that's how it seems to me.

Gender is a social construct does not define gender.
Manners are a social construct. Gender and manners are not the same thing. Social construct is not a definition.

The inference is not “I know, but do you?” , but that gender doesn’t really mean anything, I think. Or that it means stereotypes, but no one will actually admit that. The point is, there isn’ta meaningful definition, but people use it as though it has a well understood meaning.

I work in a school and have listened to what the kids are saying and what they believe on this subject. I have also attended several assemblies where trendy, well meaning staff members have talked about gender and LGBTQ+ stuff - very much along the Stonewall line - and something I have really noticed is that no one can really put their finger on what gender actually IS....

It is nothing to do with the clothes you wear or the hobbies you enjoy but an inner feeling but if you like to dress this way you may be a boy and if you want short hair you might be trans. And it's nothing to do with sexuality but if you find yourself liking the same sex it might mean you are trans. And what is that feeling? Only you know. But don't ask questions but come along to Pride club which is a safe space for EVERYONE except if you are same sex attracted and reject gender ideology as being homophobic......

Grown ups cannot explain it. Kids do not understand it. Everyone is confused.

Whereas biological sex is easy to define and observe.

I feel that this was a slightly wasted opportunity to ask the kids what they thought gender actually is and what it means to change your gender.

And to probe why toilets aren't an issue but a trans woman with a beard is.

The toilet thing is tricky because a lot of the reasons why it isn't appropriate for trans women to use women's toilets won't yet have occurred to children. I think it would be difficult to talk about things like toilet rape, or having a miscarriage in a public place, or needing to wash menstrual blood out of your knickers after a flooding incident, without parents complaining.

But what about the beards?

I think most feminists would argue that a woman, including a woman who happens to have a lot of facial hair, should not have to remove any hair from her face or body in order to be a woman. Isn't saying that trans women should remove any hair from their faces or bodies if they want to be perceived as women reinforcing the message that this is what women do/should do?

We can tell what sex trans women are whether they shave their faces or not so I don't know what difference it really makes.

If you think in terms of toilet blocks, they do have to be single sex. So say if there are 4 cubicles within a bigger room with shared sinks, then single sex. If they are single use toilets where only 1 person can enter the ‘room’ at a time and it includes a sink within the room, then they don’t need to be sexed as only 1 person can use them at a time. Think toilets in an aeroplane as opposed to toilets in the airport departure lounge! That’s why disabled toilets are not designated by sex - only 1 person can use them at once.

@LadyHester I'm currently working with my daughters' school to help the school to navigate how gender identity is taught. Unfortunately, it's an absolute minefield of different stakeholders with completely different viewpoints and motivations. However, I have found a pathway through it. Obviously I'm just a parent so all of this is being taken at the school's pace but I'm happy to share if it's helpful.

This all started off with me focusing on just my daughter's EHCP (there are some older threads about that I can dig out if they are of interest to anyone), moved on to a review of the PHSE/RSE materials and we're now at the stage where I've got some interim guidance that is already in place in another local authority (thank you to the MNer who shared this if you're reading this) and it's currently all going through the senior leadership/governor route.

The biggest problem in the RSE/PHSE materials was the conflation of sex and gender and the way that this is slowly introduced to the point where it's easy to miss what has happened. There's loads of information on Safe Schools Alliance and other similar sources (Transgender Trend for example) that helped me to review it.

The best way that I have found to progress my discussions is to focus on the fact that gender (identity) is a belief. I've seen this mentioned above too in other comments. Some people believe that we all have a gender (identity), some people don't. Unfortunately by introducing the concept of gender as a fact, as a social construct that differs from sex, it signposts children towards the belief that they have one.

I've posted a screenshot from something that I've written for the school which helps to show how I've been positioning it. As frustrating as it is to position my own views on this as a belief, I have accepted that the people who believe in gender identity hold it as a truth. Just as I hold sex immutability as a truth. In reality, I suspect most people who believe that we all have a gender identity do so because they've been introduced to the concept as a universal truth. So in short, I don't challenge the principles of the belief, but I challenge it being taught as a truth and I challenge the impact that this compelled belief has.

@Pieceofpurplesky I totally get where you're coming from by separating sex and gender. Building on what @MargotBamborough has said, unfortunately I still think that this signposts children towards the belief that we all have a gender identity. However, by separating them out as you've done, it does afford an opportunity to explore the alternative belief that sex is immutable. If I were a teacher I would personally focus on getting backing from the school that they understood the law in relation to the Maya Forstater judgement before I went ahead with this.

In the screenshot below, the DSD link is the NHS page and the "protected in law" one is to the EHRC page which covers the Forstater judgement. The others are self-explanatory I think.

but all said you couldn't change sex but you could gender.

I can never understand what this means. How do you go about changing something like a gender identity that exists in your mind? If you are a boy but you have always thought of yourself as a girl then your gender identity has remained the same hasn’t it?

This is a very good point.

If your sex is binary and immutable and your gender identity is innate and - unless you identify as genderfluid - also immutable, then surely you can't change either?

Or your gender identity is not immutable and you can change it as easily as you can change your favourite colour or the name of your imaginary friend, in which case you do you, but I don't understand why the rest of society needs to be involved in this process in any way.

@MargotBamborough I only added the beard thing as it fascinated me that they were bothered by that and we ended up discussing polysistic ovaries!

Look I taught a class on gender without resorting to any stonewall shite and allowed the kids to explore. We discussed so many things - we had neutral kids, trans allies and people who were totally feminist in their views.
For 14 year olds they were brilliant - they asked questions, remained polite and were learning more about the issue. They believe (as I said earlier) that gender is a choice, whereas sex isn't. I had an hour and 15 minutes. We couldn't cover everything and, of course, I had to try and remain neutral (which is often difficult as I have quite passionate beliefs about what a woman is and am a huge JKR fan).

They believe (as I said earlier) that gender is a choice, whereas sex isn't.

So they don't believe it's a fixed aspect of who people are which needs special pandering to and special laws of recognition? It's just something they choose which might change from day to day.

So as Margot says, it's just like their favourite colour or the name of their imaginary friend, which might have some importance to the individual, but is irrelevant for the rest of us.

In which case, why are there even lessons about it in school?

Because the govt says we have to.