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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

High Court to hear judicial review claim from nonbinary US citizen over UK gender recognition law

178 replies

IwantToRetire · 01/11/2023 00:57

A judicial review claim that argues the Government's failure to issue a nonbinary US citizen a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) breaches the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) is scheduled to be heard by the High Court on Wednesday (1 November).

Ryan Castellucci applied to be recognised as nonbinary through the Gender Recognition Act 2004 (GRA) in 2022 but is yet to have been issued a GRC.

The 2004 Act states that a person can apply for a GRC on the basis of having changed their gender under the law of an approved country or territory outside the UK.

Castellucci was born in California, which is on the approved list of territories, along with most US states.

They moved to the UK in 2019 and have sought to have their gender recognised through the 2004 Act, which does not include an explicit list of which genders can be accepted.

Castellucci believes that having a GRC which states their gender as nonbinary is the only way they can legally clarify their gender in this country.

However, the Minister for Women and Equalities argues that the GRA only permits applications for the grant of a GRC on a binary basis, namely male and female.

Castellucci argues that the Gender Recognition Panel (GRP) tasked with considering their application breached its statutory duty to issue a GRC in terms which record Castellucci's acquired gender as nonbinary.

More https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/litigation-and-enforcement/400-litigation-news/55489-high-court-to-hear-judicial-review-claim-from-nonbinary-us-citizen-over-uk-gender-recognition-law

High Court to hear judicial review claim from nonbinary US citizen over UK gender recognition law

https://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/litigation-and-enforcement/400-litigation-news/55489-high-court-to-hear-judicial-review-claim-from-nonbinary-us-citizen-over-uk-gender-recognition-law

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RethinkingLife · 01/11/2023 09:45

This attempt to extend the GRA is a clear example of why "biological sex" is a much needed clarification. The panel's response was, however, nonsensical to the point of disrespectful if it's been reported correctly. No wonder the complainant felt emboldened to take it further.

Christie Elan-Cane is who convinced me that this would become a war of attrition until enough sympathisers are in place.

Non-binary with aspects of both is a logical absurdity.

Contrived hermaphrodite isn't right either as there's the absence of dual infrastructure and functional reproductive systems. Neutrois seems to be its logical opposite as it involves removing markers of secondary sexual development (if the definition hasn't loosened). (That doesn't feel right either.)

NB covers declaration, with or without 'fe/male presenting' and sexed pronouns; 3rd person plural pronouns with/out single pronouns and multitudes within itself.

OldCrone · 01/11/2023 09:46

It's not clear why he wants a GRC. He already has "non-binary" on his US passport, and he doesn'thave a British birth certificate to change, so what is the point of this as a non UK citizen?

If he wants to prove his nonbinariness he can just show his US passport. It seems to be about imposing what he thinks are superior American values on the rest of the world.

Castellucci says they were the first person to have a non-binary passport issued by the US embassy in London, after President Joe Biden changed government rules to allow it in 2022.

Their hope was that doing this would force the UK to follow suit.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/11/2023 09:46

What even is the basis? That deranged Elan Cane woman went through every court in the land to get a passport with "X" on and she didn't win.

Boomboom22 · 01/11/2023 09:48

Biden is pushing this. If that's how America are going I'd rather trump got back in. The world has gone mad.

pronounsbundlebundle · 01/11/2023 09:50

Well, this is exciting.

I'm looking forward to getting my GRC as 'millionaire' gender and forcing people to accept my imaginary millions as payment because to do not do so would breach the EA 2010.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/11/2023 09:50

Well, seems the NHS are up for it. Here's his June update:

'NHS: “Unable to be classified as either male or female”I have been fighting to have my “phenotypic sex” corrected on my UK medical records since last August, as several of my non-binary friends have already done.
PCSE (operated by Capita, a private contractor) manages these records, officially refused to do this for me in February. I promptly complained to NHS England, which is part of the UK government.
NHS England sided with me, insisting that PCSE act on my request immediately, and clarify their policies so that nobody else will be denied.
This means that, technically, part of the UK government now officially recognizes my gender. I don’t know whether this will matter for my legal case, but it is extremely satisfying.'

PERSON PHENOTYPIC SEX CLASSIFICATION

A classification of PERSON PHENOTYPIC SEX.

https://www.datadictionary.nhs.uk/attributes/person_phenotypic_sex_classification.html

ArthurbellaScott · 01/11/2023 09:56

Can't make head or tail of the NHS page.

There's codes 1,2, and 9.

9 is for 'indeterminate (unable to be classified as either male or female)'

Then there's 'person stated gender code' and 'person phenotypic sex classification'

pronounsbundlebundle · 01/11/2023 10:03

You know what, if this dude suddenly had an emergency and had to wait 6 hours for an ambulance or wait for 12 hours in A&E I hope person would suddenly realise that being non-binary isn't actually that important. Not when wasting time on this shit probably means more people are going to die because funds are being diverted away from front-line healthcare services.

Healthcare is so broken in the UK, there are hundreds of people dying every week who wouldn't if it was functioning properly*. For shame NHS England spending time and money on this when people are dying unnecessarily.

*https://www.theactuary.com/2023/05/04/wait-watchers#:~:text=This%20implies%20that%20the%20increase,2023%20%E2%80%93%20around%20260%20per%20week.

This is slightly old data now but we all know things haven't got better.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/11/2023 10:07

Its possible his 'identity' will actually be medically quite important, given that apparently he is now a man with a surgically created and deliberately maintained wound.

Can't believe the UK government would deny this brave and stunning person the right to recognition. Will Caroline Nokes literally deny his existence?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/11/2023 10:09

I hope person would suddenly realise that being non-binary isn't actually that important.

He comes across as a power tripping narcissist to me, so I wouldn't put money on it.

OldCrone · 01/11/2023 10:15

This means that, technically, part of the UK government now officially recognizes my gender. I don’t know whether this will matter for my legal case, but it is extremely satisfying.'

In other words "Me, me, me, me, me."

IcakethereforeIam · 01/11/2023 10:34

I thought the list of countries that we had reciprocal arrangements for recognising GRCs was going to be updated? Because some of them, like Iceland and Southern Ireland have gone down the self id route. Their criteria for granting a GRC are no longer as rigorous as ours, but used to be which was why we had this reciprocal arrangement. I heard the reason the list hadn't been trimmed was due to an oversight 🙄and it was going to be shortened. Does anyone know what's going on with it?

If the Independent article above is the same as the one I read, he leads with an anecdote of a ticket inspector calling passengers 'sir' or 'madam' then coming to him and calling him 'buddy'. Yeah, right! English ticket inspectors say 'ticks plis' and 'buddy' is not commonly used here.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/11/2023 10:41

IcakethereforeIam · 01/11/2023 10:34

I thought the list of countries that we had reciprocal arrangements for recognising GRCs was going to be updated? Because some of them, like Iceland and Southern Ireland have gone down the self id route. Their criteria for granting a GRC are no longer as rigorous as ours, but used to be which was why we had this reciprocal arrangement. I heard the reason the list hadn't been trimmed was due to an oversight 🙄and it was going to be shortened. Does anyone know what's going on with it?

If the Independent article above is the same as the one I read, he leads with an anecdote of a ticket inspector calling passengers 'sir' or 'madam' then coming to him and calling him 'buddy'. Yeah, right! English ticket inspectors say 'ticks plis' and 'buddy' is not commonly used here.

He may very well be an unreliable narrator.

Chersfrozenface · 01/11/2023 10:42

ArthurbellaScott · 01/11/2023 07:18

'The judge added that Elan-Cane’s desire for an “X” passport was trumped by other considerations, among them “maintaining a coherent approach across government”.
“There is no legislation in the United Kingdom which recognises a non-gendered category of individuals,” he said.
Lord Reed said legislation “across the statute book” assumes that all people can be categorised in two sexes or genders – “terms which have been used interchangeably'

Two points.

The "maintaining a coherent approach across government”.is rapidly going out of the window, if the California's claim about the NHS is correct

And possibly more importantly, "two sexes or genders – “terms which have been used interchangeably'".

So in Lord Reed's judgement, 'gender' and 'sex' are not separate concepts. The award of a GRC means that a person has actually changed sex, in the eyes of the law, from male to female or vice versa. This echoes Lady Haldane's judgement, does it not?

This case may be useful in confirming the legal meaning of the word 'gender'.

If it does indeed have the same meaning as 'sex', i.e. either male or female, and the same meaning as biological sex...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/11/2023 10:46

He may very well be an unreliable narrator.

The few commenters below the article didn't sound convinced by the train story either.

RethinkingLife · 01/11/2023 10:57

English ticket inspectors say 'ticks plis' and 'buddy' is not commonly used here.

Agreed. The universal less formal term of choice seems to be mate…

nauticant · 01/11/2023 11:24

It's not clear why he wants a GRC. He already has "non-binary" on his US passport, and he doesn'thave a British birth certificate to change, so what is the point of this as a non UK citizen?

My guess would be that this is a way to completely sideline the birth certificate. Get a GRC stating "non-binary", and use that, and the inability to change the birth certificate in a corresponding way, as a lever to have a "non-binary gender" superseding sex in all circumstances. The birth certificate is then languishing in the background having become superfluous.

Bergamotte · 01/11/2023 11:34

Can anyone explain this bit? ""My application for a GRC was granted, but I still have not been issued the GRC that the law appears to entitle me to."

Which gender did the panel agree to issue the GRC in?

So while living in the US, this person went through the American gender recognition process and got a new US birth certificate issued showing "gender: nonbinary."

Then moved to the UK in 2019.

Then applied for a UK GRC.
I don't understand how that could be granted, as a UK GRC can only state "gender: female" or "gender: male."

CriticalCondition · 01/11/2023 11:44

In 50+ years of train travel and daily commuting I have never heard a British ticket inspector address a passenger as 'Ma'am'. In this country 'ma'am' (to rhyme with jam) is how you address the queen, not a woman on the 7.23 to Waterloo. 'Madam' is the female equivalent of 'sir' in this situation.

It brings to mind that 'call me ma'am!' American who totally lost it with a shop assistant. It's simply not our terminology in this country. Oops.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/11/2023 11:57

As a pedantic note, Glaswegians/West Coast of Scotland use 'buddy' sometimes.

ArthurbellaScott · 01/11/2023 12:00

And while I'm on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinary/comments/sfy64z/sir_no_wait_mam_im_sorry/

'I find other people's confusion as to my gender amusing and hilarious. It's my goal and very affirming'

Seems relevant.

Reddit - Dive into anything

https://www.reddit.com/r/NonBinary/comments/sfy64z/sir_no_wait_mam_im_sorry

Chersfrozenface · 01/11/2023 12:00

CriticalCondition · 01/11/2023 11:44

In 50+ years of train travel and daily commuting I have never heard a British ticket inspector address a passenger as 'Ma'am'. In this country 'ma'am' (to rhyme with jam) is how you address the queen, not a woman on the 7.23 to Waterloo. 'Madam' is the female equivalent of 'sir' in this situation.

It brings to mind that 'call me ma'am!' American who totally lost it with a shop assistant. It's simply not our terminology in this country. Oops.

Police officers call their female superiors "ma'am".

But in general, I find British people either use informal salutations or avoid them.

I get called whatever the regional usage is - 'lovely' is widespread round here. I do get called 'madam' when I venture into posh shops and restaurants