Triggernometry Day the Delusions Died

[RethinkingLife]

It's in the context of the conflict in Middle East but it has wider key questions about philosophical perspectives on whether we can legislate or social policy our way out of conflicts or can only manage them.

I keep thinking about the political and philosophical perspectives. I've always hoped that conflict can be remediated away. I've often feared it can only be managed for limited periods of time over history and that Sowell is right, "There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs".

I'm interested in this in the context of women's rights and living in a tolerant, pluralistic society despite inflammatory rhetoric from activists decrying a society in which people's values and human/civil rights are recognised as values and rights in a way that they aren't in many other countries.

I'm apprehensive about the increased likelihood of a desperate dystopia in which women will continue to be eradicated as a sex class and yet will mysteriously be allocated under-recognised caring responsibilities and lower pay.

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That's manifestly not true. No one has argued that they are not "right wing".

Do you not see that saying a group is right wing is different than saying they are far right, or alt-right?

Even if you think those groups are far right, by saying what you have, that people are disputing that they are right wing, you are showing either that, a) you are willing to twist what people say, or b) you actually can't differentiate between right wing, and far right.

And b is exactly what a lot of people are claiming is a serious problem for the left, so you've walked right into it.

Yep.

You must have missed this pist upthread
The German AfD are a very moderate party and not far right, same as UKIP and Reform U.K really, it’s just mostly sensible centrist police’s from these parties

AFD, UKIP are not centrist, moderate parties. Yet this poster was claiming they were and then called me a "left wing extremist" for pulling them up on it.

It was ridiculous. On this board I would think everyone knows that redefining words doesn't make them true.

I actually find it incredible how far things are distorted if a classic centrist like me is portrayed as "extreme left" and UKIP is "centrist".

Educate me then. What are some "far right" political parties? Why is it offensive to call UKIP/AFD far right? (By which I mean to the right of the Conservatives, the traditional right wing in the UK).

Centrist can be left or right as well. The Conservatives are mainly a pretty centrist party, and Labour has a strong centrist element, though also has a more pure leftist element. So, center left, and center right. There are of course a variety of individuals in each who may be more or less extreme.

So are UKIP far right or not? I read stuff like this which makes me think they are.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-politics-election-waters-b2322607.html

What about reform?

If not, who are the UKs far right?

There's nothing to say that any particular party has to have a far right or far left.

Usually far-right includes something like ethno-nationalism, or religious nationalism, or race essentialism.

But that doesn't just mean a party that has more restrictive immigration policies, or doesn't believe in open borders, or is ok with patriotism or national cultural symbols.

Hmm. It starts to be splitting hairs though - "restrictive immigration policies" is often a more acceptable way of putting forward "race essentialism" (See Waters for UKIP). "National cultural symbols" as well are a way of visually demonstrating a belief that the indigenous population are somehow superior, another far right view. (As an aside I have no idea what a "British cultural symbol" would be. I can only think of national flags and the swastika as examples to be honest).

For me, parties that are able to convey "far right" values (race essentialism, ethno or religious nationalism in your words) in terms that are subtle enough to make them appear mainstream is an indicator the leader is clever, not moderate. Nigel Farage is very good at knowing where the socially acceptable line is and going right up to that line to appeal to those with far right sympathies. E.g. his "vote leave" poster with queues of brown immigrants, very reminiscent of Nazi Germany posters. That was not an accident. That was him intentionally appealing to a specific far right vote base.

On this thread, posters are trying to reframe "centre" to right wing and centre left to "extreme left" and dangerous in the same way as "far right". This is a similar tactic - try to make some quite far right values appear moderate and mainstream, try to smear those who point that out.

However I'm hoping some of the posters are from the US where the "reds under the bed"/fear of communists is much more embedded than in the UK and that message doesn't play as well in the UK.

(As an aside I have no idea what a "British cultural symbol" would be. I can only think of national flags and the swastika as examples to be honest).

You view the swastika as a British cultural symbol?

I meant as an example of a cultural symbol. I can't think of any British examples.

So basically everyone who doesn't have some kind of open view of immigration is far right, because surely if they don't they are just dog-whistling their race essentialism?

Come on.

As for British cultural symbols, maybe we could say double decker busses, telephone boxes, Jane Austen, Dr Who, the monarchy, tea, certain herealdic symbols? I am sure we could go on. And then we could also include Scottish or Welsh associations which for some reason no one find problematic for regular people to use and enjoy.

So basically everyone who doesn't have some kind of open view of immigration is far right, because surely if they don't they are just dog-whistling their race essentialism?

That's not at all what i said. If you aren't interested in a genuine debate then let's not bother.

As for British cultural symbols, maybe we could say double decker busses, telephone boxes, Jane Austen, Dr Who, the monarchy, tea, certain herealdic symbols? I am sure we could go on. And then we could also include Scottish or Welsh associations which for some reason no one find problematic for regular people to use and enjoy.

Do people have problems with the "British cultural symbols" you've listed? I've never seen issues (apart from perhaps "The Monarchy" which is more of an institution than a symbol)?

You've just said that parties suggesting standard right wing policies are just putting forward things like race essentialism, in a more palatable way.

Given that we are talking about differentiating the right from the far right, I don't know how that could be interpreted other than as saying there is really no difference.

Ad yes, the educated left does tend to have a problem with cultural symbols, the flag being the most obvious example.

Anyone who seeks to turn this into a left (good people) vs far right thing, by putting the right in with the far right, is seeking to increase the polarisation which has been incredibly harmful over the past several years. Something that is a gift to populists like Trump.

Why? Do you think there is any correlation between a political party’s policies and the views of the people they represent? Since when?

Take Brexit for example, even most conservative MPs campaigned for remain but when it was put to the public in a referendum they voted leave. I think that just over 50% of the public would vote for the death penalty in a referendum too so by the standards of the actual people of this country who politicians are supposed to represent believing in the death penalty is a moderate widely held opinion not an extreme one.

I would be willing to bet that most UKIP policies would be acceptable to most people and gain about 50% support if put to the public in a referendum. They would be right in the centre of this countries population politically. It’s just that the political class don’t represent their voters that’s all, the political class are the problem not the people and the political class needs replaced. If self ID was put to parliament in a free vote without whips for example I think it would pass, if it were out to the people in a referendum I think it would fail and the difference between the public and the politicians is vast.

As for political parties being far right, the BNP are probably the best known example of a far right party in the U.K. but they are not remotely like UKIP. Their voters might be similarly but the leadership of those parties most certainly are not.

No. I gave a specific example of why I disagree that UKIP are a moderate party and think they are right wing, and why I think Nigel Farage is putting forward race essentialism in a more palatable way. Which is where the conversation started.

I'm assuming you have nothing to say to that as your response has been to straw man my perspective into "So basically everyone who doesn't have some kind of open view of immigration is far right, because surely if they don't they are just dog-whistling their race essentialism?" And then argue with that.

Yes. I would assume someone with essentially a socialist political view would vote Labour, not conservative. That's kinda the point of democracy? You are voting for someone to act as your representative in Parliament, so you pick the candidate whose position is most similar to yours.

I'm very confused you would think that's somehow unusual.

Oh, and I posted a whole bunch of links upthread explaining how UKIP and the BNP are similar and target the same voters.

If it walks like a duck.....

Targeting the same voters doesn't really mean they are similar.

Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump targeted a lot of the same voters too.

Yeah see, you’re giving the political system way too much credit, neither of the mainstream parties really represent half the population. Poll Labour MPs on say their attitude to mass immigration or crime and punishment. Then go to a rock solid Labour seat in a working class town and poll their voters… 😂

I noticed you didn’t really dispute the fact that UKIP policies including their key policy of leaving the European Union would likely be supported by around half the population either, which mainstream party representatives those people?

Ever read a book called ‘the populist delusion’?

We have representative democracy, so we vote for whom we wish to act on our behalf. They are then free to act as they wish. They aren't there to "represent half the population". They are the candidate the majority of voters think will be mos5 closely aligned to their wishes.

https://www.thoughtco.com/representative-democracy-definition-pros-cons-4589561

Are you advocating a move to direct democracy? Good luck, we can't even get PR

I noticed you didn’t really dispute the fact that UKIP policies including their key policy of leaving the European Union would likely be supported by around half the population either, which mainstream party representatives those people?
All the mainstream parties are committed to brexit. Where have you been since 2016??

Actually I think pro-EU voters are the ones who have no political home now. But I guess that's "the will of the people" (from 7 years ago, when we didn't know what brexit meant and the voter base was demographically different)

So yep, a US poster.
I have no idea about Sanders and Trump as I'm UK based. But the UK and US political landscape are not comparable
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1662061344814768129

I'm not particularly interested in discussing elites and populism from a US conservative perspective tbh

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1662061391254020099

But for the medium term at least, trans-Atlantic culture warriors can save themselves time and money by remembering that on religion, race and tradition, Britain is not America.

You cannot really be ignorant if you’re posing on a politics board. Are you trolling people? UKIP was lead by Nigel Farage, he’s like a 1980’s Thatcherite. Slightly socially conservative, very economically liberal and believes in the nation state as opposed to international institutions like the EU. He would define being British as a legal status. He is literally the sort of person Thatcher would have had in her cabinet.

The BNP are right wing in the sense that they absolutely reject equality and left wing economically. They are National Socialists. They wouldn’t accept Farage’s economic liberalism as they believe in all within the state, nothing against the state and nothing outside the state so ‘free’ enterprise under them would be ‘free’ like it is in China. Unlike the left who believe in equality and seek international socialism and solidarity based on social class the BNP believe that nationalism is the only true form of socialism as nationalism includes everyone in the nation which they would define as an ethnicity and that’s another really big difference between them and UKIP. Someone like Farage would just reject all forms of socialism and would see people as individuals only.

Can you really not see the difference? Or are you just another leftist bad faith actor and is it a waste of time telling you this? Should, as others have suggested, we just answer smear with smear?