Modern Conversion Therapy

[StripeySuperNova]

Has this been shared here? Sex Matters is publishing a policy proposal for legislation on modern conversion therapy.

What is modern conversion therapy?

Modern conversion therapy means treating someone with medication or surgery to modify their sexual characteristics, when they:

• are too young or vulnerable to make a fully informed decision
• have confounding mental-health issues that have not been not addressed
• are acting due to internalised homophobia or misogyny
• have unrealistic expectations that treatment can actually change their sex
• think other people can be forced to accept them as the opposite sex, based on a misrepresentation of the law
• have not been given full information about the effects of the treatment.

Our proposal includes model legislation that would outlaw all medical or surgical treatment of minors to modify their sexual characteristics, and treatment performed on anyone who has not had the full implications of the treatment explained to them. We want to make it a specific offence not to provide adequate information and ensure informed consent, or to take a child abroad to get around the prohibition of modern conversion therapy.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/modern-conversion/

I tend to the view that denying or supressing gender dysphoria is just storing up trouble for later, therefore therapy that encourages this would be harmful. I also don't think one can "cure" gender dysphoria, or that trying to do so is helpful; gender identity is simply a fact about a person, much like sexuality.

I don't think denying or suppressing gender dysphoria could be classed as therapy, so I don't think this is what is being proposed. Exploring with someone why they think their body is wrong or why they are unhappy about their sex is not denying or suppressing the problem.

You may not believe that it's possible to cure gender dysphoria, but I would like to see some research on whether this has actually been attempted. We can't just extrapolate to the whole population on the basis of one individual's personal experience, which will be different from everyone else's.

I don't believe that gender identity exists, so I can't agree with you on your last point. Gender is externally imposed by society. I don't identify with what society has imposed on me.

That's interesting @AlphaTransWoman. I wonder how you would respond to a transwoman who is dysphoric because of their lack of ability to carry and birth a baby?
At some point you have to come to terms with the body that you have. Isn't it better to do that when your body is whole and healthy, and without undergoing risky surgery?
There will always be imperfections. You can choose to accept the natural imperfections that you currently have or you can create imperfections that you have to come to terms with.

@AlphaTransWoman
I tend to the view that denying or supressing gender dysphoria is just storing up trouble for later, therefore therapy that encourages this would be harmful. I also don't think one can "cure" gender dysphoria, or that trying to do so is helpful; gender identity is simply a fact about a person, much like sexuality.

This is interesting because I read an account from a detransitioner who talked about being able to feel comfortable with themselves when they let go of the idea of a gender identity.

Not everyone has a gender identity. I know this for a fact because I haven't got one. I cannot match any descriptions of gender identity with my lived experience. The conclusion I've come to is that there is a fundamental difference of understanding of what it is to be male or female.

I think I get a lot more cold chills knowing of the plight of detransitioners, several of whom are mentioned in this, Keira Bell among them, who now have a harmed and distressed body they will have to live with for life. And who's own stories are that they would have sworn they were trans and said anything needed to get the surgery and medication that did this harm and that they now so regret, and who blame and adults involved for not gently and thoroughly exploring their additional needs and sources of distress to see if those needs could be resolved in less intrusive and permanent ways, before passing them on to irreversible and medically harmful treatment.

Ideology and the emotional and political needs of adults need separating out of safeguarding children.

A very welcome proposal from Sex Matters.
It's been depressing how easily self invested adults have been able to influence debate, healthcare and education - despite their evident unsuitability For far too long individuals and unrepresentative trans lobby groups demanding "I want this /feel like this /believe in this" have been given an inappropriate influence, especially in relation to children.

No more. Leave children alone. Return to our previous standards of safeguarding and ethical medical treatment for children.

I saw a chilling video on X/ Twitter of a male child being given a puberty blocker, mainly because his mother wanted a girl and has convinced him he is one. The distress on his face was horrible to see and he will never have a normal sexual function now 😪 I just don't understand how anyone can think given children puberty blockers is acceptable. It should be illegal.

@AlphaTransWoman I truly do not mean this to be disrespectful, but what do you think you can do as a woman but not as a man?

This is mainly about minors isn't it? Not adults. You, as an adult, can make informed decisions. Children cannot.

In other words this document isn't about you.

'Gender affirming care....'

Has absolutely no place anywhere near children and IS conversion therapy.

It is biased, pre determined as Transition Good, Everything Else Evil, sees transition as the absolute only possible good outcome, and is delighted to gallop kids to total transition ASAP, yippee for yeet the teets and vaginal atrophy/ bone density issues/loss of any sex life/ never being able to have children.

Which means it says 'well some adults (almost none of whom transitioned as children) are happy, so what does it matter that kids like Keira will suffer for a life time? Collateral damage innit? Like the harmed and excluded women and loss of female equality so that male people can be free and express themselves at will. Not like anyone who matters is upset, so Worth It.'

This black and white over dramatic and adult-distorted thinking has got to be separated right out and away from children. It's been tried. It doesn't work.

Those children can grow up to be adults who adapt and change their bodies however they choose. And reach adulthood having all the options and freedoms. The ones who are transitioned as kids by adults with more care in politics and their own feelings than the best interests of the child, and later come to realise the harm and regret and loss? They have no way back. They have no more choices. And it's not like the political lobby and the politically and ideologically and own-skin-in-the-game adults who pushed for them to get into that position are there for them, or care, or will even acknowledge their existence when it all goes wrong.

Their feelings are so very very important when what they want serves the lobby. When those feelings don't? Well. Then those kids are treated as the same scum as lesbians who'd like to be homosexual and women who need single sex spaces.

If anyone's has time, this is a very revealing judgement about a young boy J whose mentally unwell mother was determined that he was a girl. The paedophile scandal hit organisation Mermaids was involved (and ultimately told to leave him alone by the Judge). Numerous professionals pandered to the mother & supported socially transitioning him while the school & father were adamant he was a boy with no wish to transition.
The judgement exposes how a mentally unwell mother was able to repeatedly emotionally abuse her son, aided and abetted by professionals who were in thrall to an ideology and failed to safeguard the child at the centre. It's chilling read and something we're now seeing repeated time after time.

https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html

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@MrsOvertonsWindow Thank you for this, I was unaware of the finer details. Chilling.

How can adults make an informed decision in the absence of good quality longitudinal studies on the effectiveness of transition?

Adults can still make decisions under undue influence particularly if they have undiagnosed issues such as autism.

Trans is being massively led by ideology and activism in a way which raises massive questions - it is not evidence lead and uses collective identity in a way that concerning.

There are huge amounts of disinformation being pushed by these activists and there attempts to suppress information which doesn't fit the narrative. For example the treatment of detransitioners and the denials of detransition.

The amount of blackmail and egging on in social networks which makes it difficult for people to slow down and ask questions would fall into the classification as being 'under undue pressure' which clinicians should be far more alert to.

I take issue that even adults are always 'free' to make informed decisions on this one.

Children are more vulnerable but I don't think adults are immune due to some of the ways that ideology is part of this. Without robust evidence, which is lacking, there is an issue.

As pps have said though, Alpha, we are talking here about children.

It is well documented that a very high percentage of children with gender dysphoria, would resolve their dysphoria after going through puberty, and many would grow up to be gay or lesbian.

It is also well understood, that identity is fluid and still forming during childhood and adolescence (and I would say, throughout life).

Those of us who resist the move to socially and medically transition children and young people who have not gone through full development (and we have also read and listened to the stories of young detransitioners), believe it is too risky and unethical to lock children into what is statistically, most likely to be, a temporary identification crisis or period of natural experimentation. The consequences of which being lifelong dependence on medicalisation and worsening of mental health.

If gender identity is 'a fact about a person' (which suggests immutability), as you say, how does this square with the notion of gender fluidity; with the many who move frequently between different gender identities, or who desist, or who identify as both or no genders, or both at different times?

Also, there seems to be many contradictions around gender dysphoria and gender identity.

These days, people who advocate for transition, seem to be saying that it is only about gender identity, and that gender dysphoria is not requisite (and is considered stigmatising as a mental health condition.

As you seem to use both terms interchageably, can you explain what for you is the difference/relationship between gender dysphoria ( where you indicate mental distress), and gender identity (indicating an immutable fact of being)?

Many people transition later in life, and perhaps it is like this for you(?), wish that transition had been an option for them when young.

I fully acknowledge there are some (paricularly males) who will choose to medically transition as an adult, and may, yes, struggle with not 'fully passing' in the way they thought they would if puberty suppression had been available to them.

But as I see it though, life is imperfect for all of us, and there is a balance of risks and needs, both for the individual and for the group.

This why leaders, judges, and parents, and professionals etc need to be both wise and compassionate-recognising the lesser of evils, balancing risks, and being willing to upset or restrict people, but coming from a place of genuine care and responsibility.

You grew up and your gender dysphoria persisted, and as an adult, have made a choice about how to manage this. (You also say they is your fixed identity).

Others with childhood gender dysphoria grow up grateful for having not transitioned and no longer suffer with gender dysphoria.

Still others have transitioned late in life, or young, and may not regret this ever, or, may later in life come to regret this as their sense of self and identity continues to change over the course of life. Or, because of the realisation of what the childhood gender dysphoria actually meant for them, which is only recognised after life experience and deep reflection.

A growing number transitioned young and come to regret this very quickly.

I have listened to people with the full ranges of these experiences.

My conclusion is, that with such a diversity of causes, and unpredictability of outcomes, the only reasonable approach is to explore and inform fully, support with current distress, and to hold off on any any interventions that lock someone into a fixed identity and permanent physical changes until someone has reached maturity.

Adults can make decisions that they may, or may not, ultimately regret. And in fact, many adults currently make the decision to not medically transition (whilst advocating child medicalisation)- to simply 'identify as'- or only after having had the full experience of an adult sex life, and parenting for example. In other words, they have been able to fully explore their identity and their sexed bodies, and be informed through life experience and adult knowledge)

How can we ever say this is translatable to still developing children and young people?

As a society, the adults are responsible for the protection and wellbeing of children and young people. I just can't get my head around people not recognising the abdication of this responsibility.

I fully acknowledge there are some (paricularly males) who will choose to medically transition as an adult, and may, yes, struggle with not 'fully passing' in the way they thought they would if puberty suppression had been available to them.

The grass is always greener.

But doesn't necessarily reflect reality. It's harder to medically transition in some ways due to lack of puberty. It can make for additional complications rather than an easier option.

One of the biggest issues is lumping all trans identifying people into the same group

It's clear that there are numerous interest groups with different issues and concerns.

There is the older male transitioning group who are using children transitioning for their own agendas.

Children with autism, homophobic parents, abused children and children who are part of a social contagion trend are very very different to an adult male.

Any adult male who fails to acknowledge and understand this, is quite frankly dangerous - because they are blind to safeguarding practices are actively trying to remove them.

Yes red. There's that vital point too.
The lack of penile tissue where a boy hasn't gone through puberty.

There are so many strands to all this.

The 'ease' and 'benefits' of childhood transition is most often stated to be a better cosmetic outcome.

Many of the male people speaking with the largest voice and power to transition children are males who transitioned as adults, and not young adults, and have had wives, children, sex lives, relationships, and absolutely no intention with parting with their sexual capacity or equipment.

It is very naive not to ask, and anyone trained in safeguarding knows it's part of the job to think cynically and ask the difficult questions, think the unthinkable, because those who would take advantage of vulnerable others are not nice people who play fair, they are those who rely on the gullability and trust of others.....? Who benefits from creating legal adults with pre pubescent bodies, no capacity to get pregnant and no capacity for sexual enjoyment or arousal? And quite possibly based on current evidence, with a limited frontal lobe development leaving them with permanently 'child like' aspects?

And not just the medics and pharmaceutical companies that made thousand upon thousand from that child at every stage.

The 'ease' and 'benefits' of childhood transition is most often stated to be a better cosmetic outcome.

It is. But this makes it sound as though the whole point of physical transition is for cosmetic reasons, and that it's just an extreme form of cosmetic surgery.

How can anyone support children being pushed onto this pathway?

unless they were gender dysphoric or had some other significant motivation.
What's the 'other significant motivation'?! I think this should be more openly discussed.

MN severely restricts our freedom to discuss Malaga Airport.