Modern Conversion Therapy

StripeySuperNova · 2023-10-26T16:01:52+00:00

Has this been shared here? Sex Matters is publishing a policy proposal for legislation on modern conversion therapy. *What is modern conversion therapy? * *Modern conversion therapy means treating someone with medication or surgery to modify their sexual characteristics, when they:* - *are too young or vulnerable to make a fully informed decision* - *have confounding mental-health issues that have not been not addressed* - *are acting due to internalised homophobia or misogyny* - *have unrealistic expectations that treatment can actually change their sex* - *think other people can be forced to accept them as the opposite sex, based on a misrepresentation of the law* - *have not been given full information about the effects of the treatment.* *Our proposal includes model legislation that would outlaw all medical or surgical treatment of minors to modify their sexual characteristics, and treatment performed on anyone who has not had the full implications of the treatment explained to them. We want to make it a specific offence not to provide adequate information and ensure informed consent, or to take a child abroad to get around the prohibition of modern conversion therapy.* [[https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/modern-conversion https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/modern-conversion/]]

Ingenieur · 27/10/2023 11:43

Excellent!

All looks clear and sensible.

BreatheAndFocus · 27/10/2023 12:59

Some people on X are going mad about this 🙄 Those precautions seem sensible. Surely that’s what psychiatrists do/used to do anyway?

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/10/2023 13:03

and treatment performed on anyone who has not had the full implications of the treatment explained to them.

Needs something about capacity and understanding. I can explain metaphysics to my dog but he doesn't understand it.

molotovcupcakes · 27/10/2023 13:05

Who could morally object to this, it is just common sense.

Original poster

StripeySuperNova · 27/10/2023 18:36

I thought it was quite clever to re-brand it to modern conversion therapy. We can all get behind a ban on modern conversion therapy, I think.

OP posts:

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/10/2023 18:50

I think this is excellent, and will hopeful make politicians and activists actually consider what is meant by conversion therapy before they enact a piece of terrible law.

PaleBlueMoonlight · 27/10/2023 19:00

I think this is a good start. There will be grey though, in particular where children have disorders of sexual development and might benefit from medical intervention (I know that this itself is a sensitive area to navigate). The difficulty will be that TRAs will seek to exploit any exemption that accounts for this very particular group of children.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2023 20:51

BreatheAndFocus · 27/10/2023 12:59

Some people on X are going mad about this 🙄 Those precautions seem sensible. Surely that’s what psychiatrists do/used to do anyway?

Yep.

And then the activists and politicians started to stick their oar in.

OldCrone · 27/10/2023 20:57

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/10/2023 13:03

and treatment performed on anyone who has not had the full implications of the treatment explained to them.

Needs something about capacity and understanding. I can explain metaphysics to my dog but he doesn't understand it.

Yes, that should be something like:

and treatment performed on anyone who does not have the capacity to understand the full implications of the treatment.

No child has the capacity to understand the full implications of a treatment which will leave them with impaired sexual function as an adult.

No child has the capacity to understand the full implications of a treatment which will sterilise them. It would be absurd to say that a child can consent to such treatment, when adults are often refused sterilisation on the grounds that they might change their minds.

newtlover · 27/10/2023 21:16

PaleBlueMoonlight · 27/10/2023 19:00

I think this is a good start. There will be grey though, in particular where children have disorders of sexual development and might benefit from medical intervention (I know that this itself is a sensitive area to navigate). The difficulty will be that TRAs will seek to exploit any exemption that accounts for this very particular group of children.

they thought of this
if you go to the ws there is a document which includes the actual wording of the proposed legislation and it provides an exemption for treating people with verified DSD

I think it's a stroke of genius, well done Sex Matters

Stephannee · 27/10/2023 21:18

In other words "ban trans people from existing" but use wording that makes it sound like a good thing?

Froodwithatowel · 27/10/2023 21:20

I'm exhausted by that silly phrase. Either explain properly what you actually mean or let's agree it's just a 'squirrel!' yell to try and end a conversation you don't like.

Bravo Sex Matters, agree with every word.

TotalOverhaul · 27/10/2023 22:05

Stephannee · 27/10/2023 21:18

In other words "ban trans people from existing" but use wording that makes it sound like a good thing?

not at all. Ban adults from fast-tracking children through permanent transformation without first looking at underlying causes of dysphoria and without glossing over the very serious implications long term.

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 22:08

"have confounding mental-health issues that have not been not addressed"

As a ND trans woman, and one who has experienced significant episodes of anxiety and depression, that sent a shiver down my spine. Hormone therapy has made me a lot more comfortable in my own body and the idea that mental health issues (however defined) could be weaponised against someone seeking gender affirming care terrifies me.

OldCrone · 27/10/2023 22:44

Stephannee · 27/10/2023 21:18

In other words "ban trans people from existing" but use wording that makes it sound like a good thing?

What is a "trans person"? Can you give a description of what makes a person "trans"?

Do people who are "really trans" exist?

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 22:59

@OldCrone
Apologies to @Stephannee if I'm stealing her thunder, but gender dysphoria certainly exists and it can be debilitating if not addressed. I know. The question is if and how society can accommodate those who find life unbearable living in their natal sex.

PingoDome · 27/10/2023 23:11

But everyone remains their natal sex anyway! Part of the point is to make sure that people understand that and are utterly realistic about the changes that can be made, the unwanted as well as the wanted effects, and the need to live with other people's recognition of your natal sex.

If you knew all that and chose to take the hormones anyway, fair enough.

Rudderneck · 27/10/2023 23:31

As far as it goes these seem like good guidelines. But I don't know that I think there needs to be any laws about conversion therapy. I just don't really think that's the most appropriate institution to be dealing with that kind of question?

Surely some of that stuff, in the general sense, must already be illegal?

Thingybob · 27/10/2023 23:50

I just read the policy proposal and noted the names of the case studies that were taken from the public domain.

Keira, Richie, Sinead and Jackie!

OldCrone · 27/10/2023 23:53

AlphaTransWoman · 27/10/2023 22:59

@OldCrone
Apologies to @Stephannee if I'm stealing her thunder, but gender dysphoria certainly exists and it can be debilitating if not addressed. I know. The question is if and how society can accommodate those who find life unbearable living in their natal sex.

So your definition of a trans person is someone who suffers from gender dysphoria?

What about all those people who claim to be trans but don't have gender dysphoria?

AlphaTransWoman · 28/10/2023 00:06

@OldCrone
Not precisely because a person with gender dysphoria who has not undertaken transition, in terms of public presentation and/or how they describe themselves, would not be trans.

As for those who do not have gender dysphoria but claim to be trans, I can't speak for them. I'm not sure I understand why anyone would go through the significant upheaval of changing their gender unless they were gender dysphoric or had some other significant motivation.

OldCrone · 28/10/2023 08:43

I'm not sure I understand why anyone would go through the significant upheaval of changing their gender unless they were gender dysphoric or had some other significant motivation.

Isla Bryson's motivation was quite obvious. But I'm not sure what you mean by "significant upheaval of changing their gender". It's not much of an upheaval for a man to say "I am a woman", which is all that's required for a "change of gender".

But to get back to the subject of the thread, you seem to be saying that you believe that having gender dysphoria is an essential part of being trans, but physical transition is something which may or may not be chosen by that person. If a person can have therapy which would enable them to live in their body as it is, without any medical or surgical intervention, surely that is a good thing, since the medication and surgery are not without significant negative health implications. Wouldn't it be better to find a solution for their mental difficulties which didn't have such a negative impact on their physical health?

HBGKC · 28/10/2023 08:59

"Modern conversion therapy means treating someone with medication or surgery to modify their sexual characteristics"

All very sensible points, but I think they should clarify/define what they mean by 'sexual characteristics': are they restricting these proposals strictly to physical alterations, or should they also include incitement/encouragement of mental/psychological gender confusion/dysphoria, in which case I think this needs to be explained more explicitly.

AlphaTransWoman · 28/10/2023 09:19

OldCrone · 28/10/2023 08:43

I'm not sure I understand why anyone would go through the significant upheaval of changing their gender unless they were gender dysphoric or had some other significant motivation.

Isla Bryson's motivation was quite obvious. But I'm not sure what you mean by "significant upheaval of changing their gender". It's not much of an upheaval for a man to say "I am a woman", which is all that's required for a "change of gender".

But to get back to the subject of the thread, you seem to be saying that you believe that having gender dysphoria is an essential part of being trans, but physical transition is something which may or may not be chosen by that person. If a person can have therapy which would enable them to live in their body as it is, without any medical or surgical intervention, surely that is a good thing, since the medication and surgery are not without significant negative health implications. Wouldn't it be better to find a solution for their mental difficulties which didn't have such a negative impact on their physical health?

That's an interesting point. Managing gender dysphoria without transition is something I tried to do for many years, but for me it didn't work. I eventually got to the point where transition was the only way I could continue to exist.

I tend to the view that denying or supressing gender dysphoria is just storing up trouble for later, therefore therapy that encourages this would be harmful. I also don't think one can "cure" gender dysphoria, or that trying to do so is helpful; gender identity is simply a fact about a person, much like sexuality.

Ingenieur · 28/10/2023 09:31

@AlphaTransWoman

It absolutely is not a significant upheaval to "change your gender" in the UK at the moment. Even getting a GRC is a relatively low-stakes endeavour.

But you say you can't speak for other trans people who might define being trans another way. This loose definition is what got us here in the first place. You want society to accommodate a person who doesn't believe they are the sex they really are (or finds the reality of their sex unbearable): sure, but society needs to agree on what accommodations it wants to offer, and to whom they are offered. That's if any accommodations are even warranted in the first place.

Until trans people can define what it is that is being accommodated then we can't really offer anything, can we?