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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jamie Wallis Transgender MP not standin

69 replies

Chersfrozenface · 22/10/2023 17:47

Jamie Wallis, the transgender Tory MP for Bridgend, will not be standing in the licality at the next election.

In the BBC News story he says irs because of boundary changes. I'm sure we all believe him.

He"ll be trying to stand in a constituency outside Wales. One quote might give is a clue - "Certain communities congregate in certain areas of the country. So, it does make sense to look at other places".

So... Brighton? A constituency containing predominately university students?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv233g20mvlo

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 23/10/2023 11:08

Also re Margot's point about him trolling Stonewall: they must also be unbelievably dim if they didn't realise that claiming that cross-dressers are legitimately trans would come back to bite them on the arse

We're into Frankfurt territory.

Philosopher Harry Frankfurt first published "On Bullshit" in the Raritan Quarterly Review in 1986, and it appeared again two years later in a collection of his essays, The Importance of What We Care About. And then it sat quietly for 17 years before Princeton University Press brought it out in a slender, stand-alone volume that became an unexpected best-seller.

While "On Bullshit" certainly felt timely in 2005 (and, presumably, to the handful of people who first read it in the '80s), it's grown more relevant with each passing year, and it's now one of the defining texts of our era. I recommend it in its entirety, but I think the closing pages are essential reading for any citizen of the 21st century:

It is impossible for someone to lie unless he thinks he knows the truth. Producing bullshit requires no such conviction. A person who lies is thereby responding to the truth, and he is to that extent respectful of it. When an honest man speaks, he says only what he believes to be true; and for the liar, it is correspondingly indispensable that he considers his statements to be false. For the bullshitter, however, all these bets are off: he is neither on the side of the true nor on the side of the false. His eye is not on the facts at all, as the eyes of the honest man and of the liar are, except insofar as they may be pertinent to his interest in getting away with what he says. He does not care whether the things he says describe reality correctly. He just picks them out, or makes them up, to suit his purpose. [pp 55-56]

Both in lying and in telling the truth people are guided by their beliefs concerning the way things are. These guide them as they endeavor to describe the world correctly or to describe it deceitfully. For this reason, telling lies does not tend to unfit a person for telling the truth in the same way that bullshitting tends to. Through excessive indulgence in the latter activity, which involves making assertions without paying attention to anything except what it suits one to say, a person’s normal habit of attending to the way things are may become attenuated or lost. Someone who lies and someone who tells the truth are playing on opposite sides, so to speak, in the same game. Each responds to the facts as he understands them, although the response of one is guided by the authority of the truth, while the respond of the other defies that authority and refuses to meet its demands. The bullshitter ignores these demands altogether. He does not reject the authority of the truth, as the liar does, and oppose himself to it. He pays no attention to it at all. By virtue of this, bullshit is a greater enemy of the truth than lies are. [pp 59-61]

The contemporary proliferation of bullshit also has deeper sources in various forms of skepticism which deny that we can have any reliable access to an objective reality, and which therefore reject the possibility of knowing how things truly are. These "antirealist" doctrines undermine confidence in the value of disinterested efforts to determine what is true and what is false, and even in the intelligibility of the notion of objective inquiry. One response to this loss of confidence has been a retreat from the discipline required by dedication to the ideal of correctness to a quite different sort of discipline, which is imposed by pursuit of an alternative ideal of sincerity. Rather than seeking primarily to arrive at accurate representations of a common world, the individual turns toward trying to provide honest representations of himself. Convinced that reality has no inherent nature, which he might hope to identify as the truth about things, he devotes himself to being true to his own nature. It is as though he decides that since it makes no sense to try to be true to the facts, he must therefore try instead to be true to himself.

But it is preposterous to imagine that we ourselves are determinate, and hence susceptible both to correct and incorrect descriptions, while supposing that the ascription of determinacy to anything else has been exposed as a mistake. As conscious beings, we exist only in response to other things, and we cannot know ourselves at all without knowing them. Moreover, there is nothing in theory, and certainly nothing in experience, to support the extraordinary judgment that it is the truth about himself that is the easiest for a person to know. Facts about ourselves are not peculiarly solid and resistant to skeptical dissolution. Our natures are, indeed, elusively insubstantial—notoriously less stable and less inherent than the natures of other things. And insofar as this is the case, sincerity itself is bullshit. [pp 64-67]

https://www.edbatista.com/2020/03/on-bullshit.html

Beowulfa · 23/10/2023 11:10

Regardless of his crossdressing habits, he sounds like a useless MP.

AutumnCrow · 23/10/2023 11:14

OldCrone · 23/10/2023 10:47

Stonewall appear to want the definition of transgender to include men who cross dress, but I'm not so sure they want the general public to realise that these people are included.

The strategy used by Press for Change, when campaigning for the GRA, was exactly that. The idea was to blur the boundaries between transvestite and transsexual, but not be too open about it. This is from Pressing Matters by Christine Burns of Press for Change:

‘Our successes as a campaign were grounded in progress made for people who fitted the clinical definition of transsexual. At the heart of this was a tacit understanding that people in positions of power might be persuaded to change laws for people with some kind of clinically underwritten status – something they couldn’t help being.

‘We knew in our hearts at that time that policymakers and judges weren’t yet sophisticated enough in their understanding to contemplate rights for people whose difference appeared self-identified or impermanent or maybe even optional. That didn’t mean we weren’t going to try where possible. There was a valid freedom of expression case to be made for people to be able to present in whatever way they wish. But we were also pragmatists, careful not to frighten the horses at this early stage.

https://womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

'There was a valid freedom of expression case to be made for people to be able to present in whatever way they wish.'

Yes, there was. What a pity that the route chosen wasn't actually Freedom of Expression but TWAW and No Debate.

If the route had been Freedom of Expression then we would be having sensible discussions around artistic freedom, public decency, criminal behaviour & safeguarding, and good old-fashioned regulation & licensing of events and establishments.

I guess No Debate did a lot of heavy lifting on the child medicalisation front. It always seem to come back to that, alongside safeguarding of children. That's what the general public weren't ready to see - the freely expressed wishes of adults to medicalise and sexualise children. And the general public, thank fuck, never will be ready for that in the UK. Never.

Wake up Starmer. You're being played, just like Harman was by PIE.

MargotBamborough · 23/10/2023 11:19

RoyalCorgi · 23/10/2023 11:03

I don't think it's a coincidence that he announced that he "wants to be trans" just after this incident.

Neither do I. But what continues to stagger me is the stupidity. So many MPs, Labour and Tory, congratulated him on his bravery on coming out as trans, even though a moderately intelligent 8-year old could tell he was taking the piss. I mean, these are our elected representatives.

Also re Margot's point about him trolling Stonewall: they must also be unbelievably dim if they didn't realise that claiming that cross-dressers are legitimately trans would come back to bite them on the arse.

Wtf is wrong with these people?

I think Stonewall are obviously very powerful and have sunk a lot of money into this. In many ways the fact that they've been so successful in capturing the entire political establishment shows that they are far from "dim".

But I think to a certain extent they are in uncharted territory and are kind of making it up as they go along.

Have you read "The End of the World is Flat" by Simon Edge? It's a parody of the trans issue, featuring a charitable foundation loosely based on Stonewall.

The foundation is called "The Orange Peel Society" and it was originally set up to promote an alternative version of the world map which looks more like the peel from an orange carefully removed in one piece and laid out flat, rather than a perfect rectangle. The logic is that in order to fit a map of the world into a perfect rectangle you have to completely fuck with the actual proportions of the different continents, which gives people a completely false perspective of what different parts of the world actually look like in comparison to each other. The orange peel map is based on what it would look like if you "unpeeled" a globe and laid it flat.

The founder of the organisation gets to a point where the orange peel map is now the standard version used around the world and the organisation has become a benchmark of, I don't know, scientific accuracy or something. Mission accomplished, she decides she wants to wind up the society on the grounds that it has successfully fulfilled its mission. But she then finds herself ousted by her board, who want to retain their lucrative posts and positions of influence in wider society, and have decided that the organisation's new mission should be to convince everyone that the earth is actually flat after all.

The parallel being drawn is obviously Stonewall, which was set up to advocate for the rights of same sex attracted people, and as soon as it became clear that this purpose was all but successfully achieved, changed course and started essentially promoting the idea that biological sex is not important and what matters is your gender identity, meaning that a male with a penis who is attracted to females with vaginas can identify as a lesbian, and a lesbian with a vagina who doesn't accept "lesbians" with penises is equivalent to a sexual racist.

It really is jaw droppingly ludicrous, and if it were fiction you would think it was way too far fetched.

I definitely get the impression with Stonewall that they kind of said to themselves, "This is a bit out there, but let's try it and see if people go for it." And because they got away with it, they're now like, "Woah. If people will believe that they'll believe anything. What else can we push for?"

Melroses · 23/10/2023 12:10

He's blown it, hasn't he.

He had a good seat in a good constituency and all he had to do was play his cards right and have a career. Apologise for being an idiot and do his job.

With the Tories on the down, no constituency that wants to actually return a Conservative MP will touch him with a barge pole.

The narcism always wins - just like the ones whose quiet media career takes off because they is trans, but they blow it because everything is never enough.

EasternStandard · 23/10/2023 12:13

MargotBamborough · 23/10/2023 11:19

I think Stonewall are obviously very powerful and have sunk a lot of money into this. In many ways the fact that they've been so successful in capturing the entire political establishment shows that they are far from "dim".

But I think to a certain extent they are in uncharted territory and are kind of making it up as they go along.

Have you read "The End of the World is Flat" by Simon Edge? It's a parody of the trans issue, featuring a charitable foundation loosely based on Stonewall.

The foundation is called "The Orange Peel Society" and it was originally set up to promote an alternative version of the world map which looks more like the peel from an orange carefully removed in one piece and laid out flat, rather than a perfect rectangle. The logic is that in order to fit a map of the world into a perfect rectangle you have to completely fuck with the actual proportions of the different continents, which gives people a completely false perspective of what different parts of the world actually look like in comparison to each other. The orange peel map is based on what it would look like if you "unpeeled" a globe and laid it flat.

The founder of the organisation gets to a point where the orange peel map is now the standard version used around the world and the organisation has become a benchmark of, I don't know, scientific accuracy or something. Mission accomplished, she decides she wants to wind up the society on the grounds that it has successfully fulfilled its mission. But she then finds herself ousted by her board, who want to retain their lucrative posts and positions of influence in wider society, and have decided that the organisation's new mission should be to convince everyone that the earth is actually flat after all.

The parallel being drawn is obviously Stonewall, which was set up to advocate for the rights of same sex attracted people, and as soon as it became clear that this purpose was all but successfully achieved, changed course and started essentially promoting the idea that biological sex is not important and what matters is your gender identity, meaning that a male with a penis who is attracted to females with vaginas can identify as a lesbian, and a lesbian with a vagina who doesn't accept "lesbians" with penises is equivalent to a sexual racist.

It really is jaw droppingly ludicrous, and if it were fiction you would think it was way too far fetched.

I definitely get the impression with Stonewall that they kind of said to themselves, "This is a bit out there, but let's try it and see if people go for it." And because they got away with it, they're now like, "Woah. If people will believe that they'll believe anything. What else can we push for?"

It’s a gravy train. No mistake

SinnerBoy · 23/10/2023 12:30

I don't know why you horrid meanies are set against Eddie Lizard standing in Brighton Pavillion. Where's your compassion? Have you seen the weather? You don't want his mascara to run, do you?

MadeOfAllWork · 23/10/2023 12:33

OldCrone · 22/10/2023 20:07

He crashed his car into a telegraph pole while wearing a leather mini skirt and high heels. He abandoned his car and fled the scene.

Shortly after this incident he announced that he 'wanted to be transgender'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-62118964

Yep. The headline ‘Tony MP found wearing leather mini skirt and high heels’ is bad.
’Tory MP is trans’ is good.
I would be amazed if there wasn’t a Malcolm Tucker type behind this.

OldCrone · 23/10/2023 13:00

AutumnCrow · 23/10/2023 11:14

'There was a valid freedom of expression case to be made for people to be able to present in whatever way they wish.'

Yes, there was. What a pity that the route chosen wasn't actually Freedom of Expression but TWAW and No Debate.

If the route had been Freedom of Expression then we would be having sensible discussions around artistic freedom, public decency, criminal behaviour & safeguarding, and good old-fashioned regulation & licensing of events and establishments.

I guess No Debate did a lot of heavy lifting on the child medicalisation front. It always seem to come back to that, alongside safeguarding of children. That's what the general public weren't ready to see - the freely expressed wishes of adults to medicalise and sexualise children. And the general public, thank fuck, never will be ready for that in the UK. Never.

Wake up Starmer. You're being played, just like Harman was by PIE.

Edited

The aim of Press for Change, from the 1990s, was to blur the distinction between transvestite and transsexual. This is from their submission to parliament in 2007.

What is Transgender

Transgender is an umbrella term, coined in America, used to include people whose lifestyles appear to conflict with the gender norms of society. It includes many types of people and lifestyles. In the broadest use of the term, a transgender person crosses the conventional boundaries of gender; in clothing; in presenting themselves; even as far as having multiple surgical procedures to be fully bodily reassigned in their preferred gender role.

In this report we will normally use the term 'trans people' to describe those people who might be described as falling broadly within this context, as it has become the term of normal use since the coining of it by Press for Change for their 1996 mission statement: "Seeking respect and equality for ALL trans people"[2]. People who identify as transsexual are a small part of this spectrum and may or may not have had medical treatment to alter their physical appearance.

The aim from the start was for part-time crossdressers to have the same 'rights' as transsexuals who had undergone surgery. I have no idea why, since Press for Change was a group set up for transsexuals. Why they wanted to convince everyone that every man who gets off on wearing his wife's knickers is the same as them is beyond me.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmpublic/criminal/memos/ucm39102.htm

Melroses · 23/10/2023 13:15

They were obviously broadening their appeal to keep the organisation running after achieving their aim in 2004.

Didn't it come out of the Beaumont society, originally, who are cross dressers.

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2023 13:23

Also re Margot's point about him trolling Stonewall: they must also be unbelievably dim if they didn't realise that claiming that cross-dressers are legitimately trans would come back to bite them on the arse

But what is the actual supposed difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman? I can't see one.

RoyalCorgi · 23/10/2023 13:26

I have read the brilliant The End of the World is flat (nice summary from Margot) and the sequel, In the Beginning, which is also very good.

I honestly think that Edge's parody is less ridiculous than the reality. The fact that we now have people in authority who seriously claim that men can be lesbians and that rapists should be put in women's prisons if they claim to be female would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.

And while I can see that Stonewall had to find a way of making money after they achieved all their initial aims, it would also be nice if they could have retained some principles like, telling the truth is important, lesbians shouldn't be forced to have sex with men, same-sex attraction is legitimate. That kind of thing.

MargotBamborough · 23/10/2023 13:32

RoyalCorgi · 23/10/2023 13:26

I have read the brilliant The End of the World is flat (nice summary from Margot) and the sequel, In the Beginning, which is also very good.

I honestly think that Edge's parody is less ridiculous than the reality. The fact that we now have people in authority who seriously claim that men can be lesbians and that rapists should be put in women's prisons if they claim to be female would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.

And while I can see that Stonewall had to find a way of making money after they achieved all their initial aims, it would also be nice if they could have retained some principles like, telling the truth is important, lesbians shouldn't be forced to have sex with men, same-sex attraction is legitimate. That kind of thing.

I agree with you that the parody is less ridiculous than reality.

It doesn't actually matter if some people believe the earth is flat. Unless you are a pilot, or a coastguard or a fisherman who needs to understand about tides, you could go about your life firmly convinced that the world is flat and it would have zero impact on your life or anyone else's.

Most people have no real need to know whether the earth is flat or spherical, but if we didn't know who is male and who is female, humans would have become extinct a long time ago.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/10/2023 22:19

I’ve lost track but could there be a run off between Izzard and Wallis in Brighton?

That would be interesting, deranged TRA ally Green Sian Berry is also attempting to retain it for the Greens after Caroline Lucas stepped down.

inkjet · 24/10/2023 00:27

ArabellaScott · 23/10/2023 13:23

Also re Margot's point about him trolling Stonewall: they must also be unbelievably dim if they didn't realise that claiming that cross-dressers are legitimately trans would come back to bite them on the arse

But what is the actual supposed difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman? I can't see one.

I’ve always wondered this.

RoyalCorgi · 24/10/2023 11:45

But what is the actual supposed difference between a crossdresser and a transwoman? I can't see one.

This is a good question. It depends on whether you believe in the idea of "true trans". Clearly some men who identify as trans are getting a sexual kick out of cross-dressing. But are there some who truly, genuinely believe that inside, they are female? That their male body is utterly abhorrent to them and they would just feel happier if they were allowed to present to the world as women? Ray Blanchard's research with trans women led him to the conclusion that up to 85% were the three-letter abbreviation we're not allowed to mention, while the other 15% were effeminate gay men.

Maybe it would be unfair to characterise those who fall into the 15% category as cross-dressers.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 24/10/2023 12:33

@RethinkingLife

We're into Frankfurt territory.

At first glance I read this as "We're into Franknfurter territory" and thought "yep that is exactly what this is...right down to the pearls!"

IcakethereforeIam · 24/10/2023 12:36
rocky horror picture show transvestite GIF

I'd vote for Tim Curry's Franknfurter.

OldCrone · 24/10/2023 13:40

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