The misogynist left

[catduckgoose]

I'm on the left and have been all my life, but I've been thinking a lot recently about the misogynist strand of leftist politics and how it is that their views cluster around so many women-hating beliefs, such as:

1. TWAW and gender ideology - seeing male desires as more important than the needs of women and girls.
2. Glorifying sex work - disregarding the physical and mental harm to women, in favour of what best supports male lechery.
3. Uncritical support of Islam - ignoring the inherent misogyny and violence of men against women, and using oppression narratives to excuse this.

The last one there has been a huge amount of in the past few days in context of the Israel-Palestine conflict, I made the mistake of watching war footage of Hamas' brutality, particularly towards women (Shani Louk video is absolutely horrifying), and then I see people on the left, mostly men, defending all this as a just cause and crying 'Islamophobia' to anyone disagreeing.

The frustrating thing is those who promote these views don't even recognise their misogyny and sometimes even try to twist it to paint anyone criticising these views as misogynist!

Anyway I just wanted to open a conversation about this and was wondering if anyone else feels the same and has other examples of similar beliefs amongst the misogynist left.

@HarleyStreetHeathen interesting post. I’m fascinated by the widespread support on social media for Hamas/ Palestine. How do they justify their attitude to homosexuality? Or are they just not aware of it?

@Teddleshon - I would imagine they haven't a clue about it. People seem to be very good at not joining the dots these days I think. Same as the gender debate- so many people don't see the logical consequences of their social media soundbites. I'm not usually one of these "social media is the work of the devil" types but one thing that it has done is made it so easy to post slogans or statements with absolutely no knowledge to back them up.

I was listening to R4 yesterday and there was a programme about PR in politics which was interesting and depressing at the same time. The idea that you just keep repeating your stock phrase and the public lap it up without question. It has probably been true for centuries but it is now easier than ever for those with zero understanding of the facts to latch onto ideas via slogans.

I’m sure you’re right but wow, how unbelievably depressing. Terrifying to think how people can sleepwalk into things.

I think they haven't a clue. And it's true about all sorts of issues.

Instant experts, just add water....
(Or alcohol. Fire them up with booze and they're unbearable.)

I grew up around an extended family of fairly far left activists. The attitude of ‘go and make the tea love, the men are planning the revolution here and once that’s done we’ll worry about your silly feminist notions’ was INGRAINED.

I’m economically fairly socialist, but in my experience misogyny is baked into the left in away it isn’t baked into the right. I‘m not saying there aren’t plenty of sexist dinosaurs on the right, but there isn’t the same vibe of ‘women, shut up and let the men talk’

Yes, boundaries are vital - but what they want is to re-draw boundaries in a way that suits them - without bothering to enquire how everyone else feels about that. They don't care, they will trample your boundaries and erect theirs anyway....and theirs are a lot more intolerant, rigid and authoritarian.

That's because they have to be consistent in their package of ideological stances and beliefs, even if what they support is itself tyrannical. They cannot back down - because their identity is entirely based on being of that sort of Left wing tribe. Look at Billy Bragg and Owen jones as perfect examples.

Absolutely, as an example the solipsism and sheer ignorance of people like Will Young proclaiming that they are scared to be gay in the UK is deeply embarrassing.

Important to add again: the freedoms and abandoning of constraints is not for everybody. It's not a value held as the right thing for all.

You try explaining that you want to exercise your freedom to use the language of your choice, or to express your beliefs freely as you live your 'best life' and other trite bollocks?

Whether or not it is a wonderful thing for you to exert your freedom will depend upon who you are and what you want to say and believe.

If it enables men in sexual freedoms AND you are from a powerful, fashionable and rich group? Yes, its great, you do it.

If you're homosexual, female, disadvantaged with inclusion and access needs that don't jive with male sexual entitlement? You can shut up. You do not get to use your own words, you will use what you're told or else, police involvement and losing your job and bank account may follow. You may not have equality of access to match the access of male people if it might prevent their absolute freedom and supremacy of right to all spaces. You may not define yourself as 'not cis', you may not define yourself as homosexual. You may not talk about your fears and feelings and life experiences if your narrative impedes the freedoms and supremacy of male fears, feelings, wishes, desires and experiences, while male people are endlessly sympathetically indulged to impede yours.

If these were actual values, I'd have more respect for them. But they are not. They are fig leaves over the top of a desire to oppress, subordinate, exclude, control, which is mostly a desire based in male supremacism, and to basically become a rather cruel ruling class and throw DEI back 40 years. While using all the language and terms and virtue signalling about how wonderful and superior and insightful their DEI is.

Yes you put it well

I am aware I have lived in very safe, fortunate countries

The privilege is found in some of these luxury views

I think we don’t quite believe it, that real terror is a reality in many places.

It’s indulgent but I wonder if we’re edging away from we are safe to be as we are to my god the world is actually quite unsafe we’d better appreciate what we have and protect it (for our children too)

We’re not there yet though

The way the Left talks about Britain you'd think it was the worst place on earth - not one of the most succesful and stable multi-cultural societies in the world. Of course it has its own very real and pressing issues - much in the same way as most other western democracies.

I basically agree on the Islam support - there's a lot of ignorance and denial among the left that lead to oversimplified and kneejerk "underdog" support even when that dog behaves in a way what really doesn't deserve it. But there's another side -

I think the thinking is not so much that radical Islam is great, but rather that it's ONE ingredient of a culture that is as complex and multifaceted as any other, and it's up to the people within that culture to make their own decisions about how all that complexity goes together and what part Islam, radical or otherwise, gets to play in it.

It's worth remembering in this respect that western colonial powers have been perfectly willing to support and cooperate with Islamic extremists when it suited their geopolitical purposes to do so. The British actively courted, supported and funded the Wahabbis in Arabia to undermine political stability there and protect their stake in the region's future. And we don't seem to have a problem selling them the arms they need to maintain their particular vision of order. Other radical Islamic groups, from Hamas to ISIS etc. are bolstered and given credibility by the west's continued interference in the region, which allows them to set themselves up as championing the freedom and autonomy of their own peoples.

There have been plenty of examples throughout history of enlightened, tolerant societies with an Islamic majority religion. Sure, the religion has not been diluted through compromise with science and atheism as much as Christianity has. However the leftist view as I understand it is not that the dogmatic and extremist strain of it is a good thing deserving support in itself. It's that that process of enlightenment is far more likely to happen by acknowledging the rights of Islamic countries to work out their own version of it, free of western interference.

We live in an inter-connected world though - how can we be free of each other's influence, or without investment in one type of thing or another?

@MadderthanMorris

However the leftist view as I understand it is not that the dogmatic and extremist strain of it is a good thing deserving support in itself.

I agree with that. I'm sure plenty on the left will say that they are against religious extremism, and they don't actually support groups like Hamas. They are just blaming everything on Israel for oppressing the Palestinians, and they think that's the correct position.

You may also get some on the left, like Jeremy Corbyn, who said that Hamas are working for "peace" and "social justice", and shouldn't be labelled as a terrorist organisation by the government, but obviously not everyone on the left wants to be saying that.

You don't have to exactly support religious extremism, in this kind of situation, to get into bed with them and make excuses for them.

Another issue, is that on the left, and this applies to many conservatives also, is that they don't like Islam being picked out as different to other major world religions. While you can have violent extreme versions of other religions, in practice, Islam stands out for the level of worldwide terrorism and all the different groups that use Islamist ideology to justify violence.

If you have a Christian terror group, it's probably not a worldwide threat, and would probably be completely rejected by almost all Christians.

There have been different historical/intellectual trends in Islam at different times, and there also isn't one "official" version of it, as much as some people might like there to be. So it doesn't really make a lot of sense to say "THIS is what Islam is."

But I also think there used to be a sense among many that other cultures nee to find their own way forward, and perhaps the West isn't the be all and end all in terms of how to do things. But I don't think this is as common a way to think as it used to be.

That is, it isn't as common on the left.

Is there any interpretation of Islam under which homosexuality is acceptable?

I think you can always come up with an "interpretation". The issue is how well supported the interpretation is, or whether you have radically changed the underlying principles to be able to get that result.

@Rudderneck

There have been different historical/intellectual trends in Islam at different times, and there also isn't one "official" version of it, as much as some people might like there to be. So it doesn't really make a lot of sense to say "THIS is what Islam is."

We can make judgements about the plausibility of interpretations.

We can look at the sources used by a religion, the example of early followers, how its teachings became codified in its mainstream historic forms. We can look at the behaviour down the centuries and how strongly it connects with mainstream doctrine and such.

I think I remember Sam Harris saying about a terrorist group, "if they twisted their religion, they didn't have to twist it very much".

Thank you for this thread. I'm following it, but not well enough to contribute much at the moment, sorry.

The Hamas attack and the continued failure of the Left to condemn, but to increase support... I havent stopped shaking my head in sorrow and despair.

In the 80s and 90s the likes of Benny Rothman, Wilf Charles, Frances Dean, Sol Garson and many other older Jewish trades unionists and activists were very influential on me. I learned so much just in their company.

These screaming union delegates shouting fascist at a Jewish woman speaking at LWS at the weekend, while supporting the Hamas actions elsewhere, made me realise how lost this Left is.

It's interesting how they interpret "fascist". I would say that a nihilistic, misogynist, homophobic, antisemitic death cult such as Hamas wouldn't be something to side with. However, not only do the Left do that, they accuse it's opponents of fascism.
Very odd. No doubt they sided with ISIS against captured Yazidi slave women. Who no doubt were completely to blame.

I'd hardly rate Sam Harris as a scholar of Islam. Or anything else for that matter.

Yes, you can look at these kinds of things, and if you do, you will find that Islam has been quite varied over the centuries.

A fantastic thread. Possibly my most favourite thread I've ever read on mumsnet.

@LongLizStridesAgain your posts have been fantastic, I would like to ask you for a book reccomendation, any book, just a book you would consider a must read.

I have some thoughts to chip in, but it's midnight and my thought-chips are a bit floppy. I'll throw them in tomorrow when they become turgid.

Morocco is an interesting place to visit. It has very liberal islam, I've seen some beautiful sights - old muslim men in the traditional attire walking down the street with a young female family member, her in tight jeans with her long hair out, both talking and laughing.