Tired of this already

[Boundoverbyacat]

Since shitty Sunak declared the woman is a woman thing, my socials are full of friends claiming that trans people are under attack and if I don’t publicly declare my support then I am complicit in this.

Except I’m not

People can live their lives how they want, I don’t care what people want to dress like or who they want to be. Crack on. My only line is, if you have a penis, I don’t want you in women only spaces. That’s about it. My level of bigotry.

I don’t understand how it’s ended up amongst my peers that this makes me a transphobic bigot.

Also, I live and work in London, in a ‘trendy’ industry and I have come across ONE real life trans person. It’s a minor issue, not a major war. I can’t, and won’t, change my boundaries to accommodate a tiny tiny minority of people when the negative consequences could be so significant.

I can’t deal with this for another year until the election.

I'm sure it is easier, but that's not how language or science works. Gender is not a physical characteristic, so why pretend it is? Our brains can deal with much more than we throw at them. We don't have to dumb down and I don't know why you'd want to unless you're trying to avoid dealing with reality.

The reality is that gender identity ideology is a quasi religious belief based on sexist, unprogressive stereotypes of male and female behaviour.

Well put. 👏

In what way are we dumbing down by saying that' it's not possible for a man to be a woman?
It's a basic fact of life.

@WickedSerious You're not talking about the same thing as I was. I've repeated myself several times now. You need to get online and take responsibility for educating yourself.

I'm a woman who believes very strongly that spaces for biological women need to be protected. People who are lazy (like you) hurt us. You need to educate yourself so that you can participate in a discussion without giving trans activists ammunition to dismiss women like me as TERFs.

🤦‍♀️

The contortions to avoid acknowledging men are men and women are women and personalities and individual taste can apply to anyone of either sex must be exhausting.

Fat women, thin women, white women, black women, tall women, short women, biological women, trans women

1 of these things is not like the others

Women= adult human female it never equals males

If you want to protect women's spaces you have to keep men out,all men.

No matter what surgeries they've had,what hormones they've taken or how they identify.

Not sure why we think that this issue will go away with the election?

It's pretty obvious Labour will win, and we know that they are pro-trans.

But I wonder if people really care about the trans issue, but are instead using it as an excuse because they don't like the Conservatives, and even if Labour went back to reality on the issue people wouldn't care because it's Labour?

The amount of doctors who took to Twitter after rishi’s speech to say that they didn’t agree with single sex spaces was terrifying so yes I’m very tired of this as well

im tired of being expected to deny reality, Im tired of having to watch what I say at work, I’m tired of spending money to fund court cases that should never have had to be brought, I’m tired of the “most marginalised evah” whining about misgendering being literal Violence while 2 women a week are killed by men

so fucking tired of it all

If you want to appeal to language, I'm thinking you would need to show from the origins of the words, and the history of usage, that it's correct or a well supported idea, to apply the words "man" or "woman" based on gender identity and not biological sex.

As far as I know, that's a very recent idea. Some dictionaries may now include that kind of meaning, but I'm not aware that it's supported by the history of usage.

Why would you think "science" is relevant here? I don't believe that there was any scientific breakthrough that meant we had to reconsider how we classify things.

If some people want to change the meaning of the words, I believe it's out of ideology, and not a scientific advancement.

I don’t think you actually have a more sophisticated view, but rather, you are being silly and have tricked yourself into thinking you have a more sophisticated view.

I don't think "gender identity" is a physical characteristic, but I also don't think this matters to the meaning of man and woman. I don't think I'm "pretending" anything.

I'm using the normal meaning of words, and you either need to argue that I'm wrong on the traditional meaning, or maybe argue that you have some super impressive reason to change the meaning.

I'm guessing you are just embarrassing yourself pretending to be "scientific", and you will not be able to give anything real here.

You are hurting women by not making an effort to understand

Which women are being hurt? Could you describe these women?

I'm a woman who believes very strongly that spaces for biological women need to be protected. People who are lazy (like you) hurt us. You need to educate yourself so that you can participate in a discussion without giving trans activists ammunition to dismiss women like me as TERFs.

She doesn't need to "educate herself"

Sad to tell you, they are still going to dismiss you as a "TERF" whatever you say, the majority of TRAs and their allies, particularly the male ones, aren't interested in anything less than 100% capitulation and fawning from women. Because it's a misogynistic power trip and you are deeply naive.

Yes, the suggested tactics are laughable here.

"Now, don't call me a TERF, because I agree that you're a woman, but I want you out of this space for biological women".

Sorry, but excluding them is exactly what they mean by a TERF.

Give it a couple of months and transwomen will be claiming to be biological women. Actually I think one already has.

The über trolls like Katy Montgomerie, CursedE etc do. Winding women up is what they live for.

I am aware of a Really Moronic Wanker who claims to be biologically female.

Tired. Yes. I can't even begin to say how tired I am.

I'm not as tired as the women who have lost their jobs, careers over it. Or suffered physical attack. Or rape or death threats. Or had their mental health severely damaged.

I'm nowhere near as tired as the people who were let down by the medics and HCPs who sold them the idea they could change sex, or that 'transitioning' would solve mental health issues, only to find that it wasn't based on evidence or research.

I'm not as tired as the transwidows, and families of trans people who have had their lives turned upside by the gender ideology.

Tired is to be expected. On we go.

I am GC and do not want males in women's spaces, and am also really concerned about medical transitioning of young people.

I also think the likes of Sunak and the Daily Mail are jumping on a bandwagon and whipping up hate against trans people.

Both can be true at the same time.

I hate the fact that it's becoming more polarised, like Brexit mark 2.

(PS I know what Sunak said was technically true - I'd be thrilled if he said something similar with any sincerity - but I really didn't like his grinning soundbyte, like the unpopular kid enjoying joining in a pile on to make himself look good)

Polarisation, I would suggest, is because of a lack of voices in the moderate centrist positions?

Speak up. Speak out.

Now's the time.

Obviously you're as GC as they come, but don't like the PM talking about it.

The Daily Mail (for all of its tactics) at least gives voice to many detransitioners.

The more people that speak up the better. And if you're worried about the right-wing doing well out of the issue, then get the left-wing to speak up about it too!

OP it may not be very conciliatory, but what Sunak said loud and clear was that nobody can change sex, and he was clearly indicating a stance that woman = adult human female and man = adult human male. Those words are taken.

He said nothing that indicates a lack of respect or consideration for trans people, but people are taking offence because they’ve wombled into some fantasy land where we all have to lie otherwise it’s terribly hurtful. Telling the truth is not hate speech

Actually, that might not work for you - but I feel better 😉

Two definitely have
India Willoughby
And Rachel McKinnon/veronica ivy

Possibly yanniv too but I've not kept up with yanniv seeing as how his farms thread is just too big to keep track of.

You know how this could be fixed? Sunak back to running the country and the mail not jumping on a bandwagon (btw this particular bandwagon has been running for decades)
It's all down to the left. If they too come out and define a woman and say they will keep our single sex spaces, neither sunak or the mail would have to say anything.
Women would have what we always had, and surely as that's all we want it should be super easy to give us.

@DisappearingGirl

I also think the likes of Sunak and the Daily Mail are jumping on a bandwagon and whipping up hate against trans people.

Both can be true at the same time.

I have no confidence in the Tory Party.

However, the Daily Mail are allowed to "jump on the bandwagon" a bit if they think they are giving their audience what they want. You can both have the articles for commercial reasons, and also have writers that genuinely care about the issue.

I have probably seen quite a few of their articles, and I haven't noticed anything that makes me think they are promoting hatred of trans people; either directly or through negligence in their stories.

I would be interested to see what kind of stories, or what kind of rhetoric, you think is crossing the line?

"Well of course when our side talks about the issues, we are kind and compassionate and lovely and it's just that we care about women's rights, whereas when the other side talks about these issues, they are hateful and bigoted and they would carry out human sacrifice of trans people if they could".

Well OK, but what's the argument?

Because if you don't have a good justification, you could be charged with spreading hatred yourself.

I’m sorry @Antst but you are already considered a terf.

Transwomen are more female AND more women than women. They are more biological too, apparently. Possibly also more natal, just having the wrong sex assigned at birth.
amab will very soon be wamab (wrongly assigned male at birth) I’m sure.
And not only must you say it to not be a terf, you must think it and feel euphoric joy in it too.

Wondering out loud why some take cross sex hormones will have you branded a terf, and a nazi, and a fascist and also a racist homophobic transphobe.

(I nearly fell off my chair laughing when I was called the last 3 things 😁. It was so OTT! But then I wont lose my job and I have a tiny social circle where they largely agree with me anyway.)