Could feminism and non binary be the same thing?

[cupofdecaf]

I'd consider myself a feminist moderate GC.

I've recently met a non binary person. It got me thinking. Could I just simply reject all gender stereotypes and be non binary?

I believe that gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological fact.

I'm a woman and mother. I doubt anyone looks at me and thinks I could be or identify as a man. I do wear men's clothes a fair bit (husbands cloths mostly because they're very comfortable).

I like the idea of rejecting the social expectations of gender. My question is would that make me non binary and if not what label would be appropriate.

NB I don't feel like I need a label but we're in a culture of labels. Also I doubt it would change a single thing but I'm curious.

@BreatheAndFocus One of the silliest women I have ever encountered told me in a Facebook group chat that she was a non binary person raising two non binary children. I asked her what that meant and you would not believe the nonsense she came out with.

@MargotBamborough Yeah, these people just can’t conceive the idea of just ignoring gender stereotypes. They think they’re being oh-so-modern but in fact they’re just demonstrating how conservative they are.

Of course, there are also those who choose the label to make up for a lack of personality.

The tactic is familiar to me; 'your views are so similar to ours, we're nearly the same' and it leads to 'why don't you just come over to our side?'

there are male nonbinary people and female nonbinary people

Exactly - the significant difference is not between the binary people and the nonbinary people, it's between the male people and the female people. But it takes time to realise. In my day (I love saying that!) we had "feminist" men and it took a long time to realise that wasn't the answer either (though to be fair they were better than sexist men a lot of the time) Women still had to do most of the work for ourselves and build strength with other women to achieve anything for women.

We didn't even get as far as talking about stereotypes.

I asked her what it meant to be raising two non-binary children and she said that she was raising them without any preconceptions about whether they were a boy or a girl, and that when they were ready they could choose what gender they wanted to be, i.e. whether they wanted to be a boy or a girl or carry on being non-binary.

So I said, "OK, what do they think they are choosing between? What do they think a girl is and what do they think a boy is? And what do they think non-binary is?"

She said she had no idea what I was talking about, that it was obvious what these things are and what they would be choosing between.

So I said, "When I was a child, I understood that a boy was a child with a willy and a girl was a child without a willy. And I'm now 35 and I still think that. Presumably you and your children don't think that, because obviously a child either has a willy or doesn't have one, and they get no choice in the matter. So if you think a boy, a girl or a non-binary child is something your children can choose to be, what do they think each of those things is? Because they must have a clear idea about what each of those things is if they are to choose between them."

At this point she got angry and asked me to stop talking about her children's genitals because it was creepy. She sort of implied that I must be a paedophile for even mentioning children's genitals, actually.

Obviously that was an insane overreaction on her part, and I think the truth is that she knew exactly what I was getting at, could see the trap I was laying for her, and had to find an excuse to shut the conversation down to avoid falling into it.

Ah, one of those ‘raising my child as gender neutral/NB’ people 🙄 Will she also be letting them choose their species? It would make as much sense. It just shows that she can’t separate sex from gender IMO. The children have a sex. That’s it.

And I agree that she probably saw your trap. Very, very few of these people actually believe what they say, hence the defensiveness when asked to explain or questioned in any way.

Yeah, I think it's insane.

I mean, surely the time when you have to start treating boys differently from girls starts at potty training, right? You can dress them in gender neutral clothes and give them a gender neutral name, you can even hide their sex from the wider world if you really want to, but at some point you are going to need to teach your daughter to sit on the toilet seat and your son to stand up and point his willy into the bowl.

And that's before you even get anywhere close to puberty.

But imagine for one moment that you did this, and then your child goes to nursery or preschool or starts reception and they can clearly see that there are two types of children called boys and girls, and that they are the only one who is "non binary". Even if they don't understand what the difference actually is between the boys and the girls, surely they're going to go home and ask their mum some questions, right? Imagine eventually figuring out that you were indeed either a boy or a girl all along, just like all the other kids, and that there was no actual reason for you to be the odd one out. Your parents just decided to raise you that way because of their own beliefs about gender.

I'd be pretty mad about it, to be honest.

she said that she was raising them without any preconceptions about whether they were a boy or a girl, and that when they were ready they could choose what gender they wanted to be, i.e. whether they wanted to be a boy or a girl or carry on being non-binary.

That is really dangerous. She doesn't know it and there is no point trying to tell her, she wont believe you(!) but by not reassuring her children what sex they are and not teaching them to build and develop the concept of their own sex over time she might be inducing dysphoria. Knowing what sex they are, starting from physical facts and simple stereotypes and then refining them as they get older, is part of normal child development.

The question I would ask, is when does she think they will be "old enough" to "choose"? As soon as they say the words "mummy I'm really an X"?

And what will she do if they "choose" the other sex at age five? I might ask the question and leave her to figure out her answer for herself. Arguing only shuts off the thought process.

And what does she do if the child comes home from primary school or nursery saying "I am a boy" or "I want to be a boy"? "No dear you're not old enough to decide yet, you're non-binary?" I hope she's not one of the people who agrees if the child says they're the opposite sex and insists "no you're non-binary" if the gender identity matches the body.

(Sorry off on a bit of a derail there!)

Presumably, they’ll decide they want to be a boy if they like blue and playing with Nerf guns. They’ll decide they want to be a girl if they like pink and playing with dolls. Way to put your children in a gender prison! Kids should be free to play with any toys they like and wear whatever colours they like without having to identify as the opposite sex. This woman thinks she’s non-conforming and breaking barriers but she’s actually propping up outdated gender stereotypes and confusing her children. Sad.

Oh I don't think she would find that problematic. I think she'd let her non-binary girl be a boy and then push puberty blockers five years down the line.

I suspect that if her girl said she wanted to be a boy, or her boy said he wanted to be a girl, she'd celebrate that, whereas if her girl said she wanted to be a girl or her boy said he wanted to be a boy she'd judge them for wanting to conform.

I don't think the last few posts have been a derail at all, they're highly pertinent.

Goodness knows how a mother pretending to be 'nonbinary' explains menstruation and 'where to babies come from' to her children.

Well, if she's already in that deep then there is no point arguing.

But even if she's not that far gone it is possible to induce dysphoria without celebration/condemnation, just by letting a very young child "lead" you and "make up their own mind".

https://gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/109-what-if-we-are-all-wrong-a-mothers-regret-with-rose

She'll explain it the same way everyone else explains it.

It's all a load of pretentious bollocks.

Her kids will know what sex they are, there's no way of avoiding it. Her non binary kids will know which changing rooms they are supposed to be using at school.

If anything her kids might be more inured to genderwoo because they see it as something their embarrassing nonbinarybirthingparent believes in.

Don't non-binary people always argue that it's all about feelings...

"I feel as though I have neither a male nor female identity" or alternatively "I sometimes feel male and sometimes feel female"

It's straight out of Gender Ideology for beginners 101, it has nothing in common with feminism.

Reality is that-
Women don't "feel female". Male people can't "feel female". Non binary people can't "feel neither male or female" or alternatively "feel like sometimes male, sometimes female, often just somewhere in between <glamour giggle and hair toss>"...

NB people are adhering to a belief system very similar to a religious belief and forcing those around them to adhere to it too "I'm not a she I'm a they, you bigot..."

No they aren’t the same - feminism is trying to dismantle gender strictures for all women; NB is rejecting it for oneself whilst imposing it on others so that you can identify as their intellectual Oman’s moral superior.

If anything her kids might be more inured to genderwoo because they see it as something their embarrassing nonbinarybirthingparent believes in.

I think this would be a good outcome in the case described but... Unfortunately I think that kids "rebelling" against their parents' beliefs is rarer than we think. It takes a strong upbringing in critical thinking and other analytical skills/habits to give a kid the confidence and ability to question their parents beliefs. That's why kids are more likely to have their parents' religion and political leaning than not (I know, citation needed!) But my point is, in a household where kids are brought up with all kinds of nonsense like choosing whether they're from blue or pink planet, they're not being equipped with those skills.

As a sort of comparison... I was brought up by a very new-age mum, she took me to "have my aura read" and would get me to stare into a candle to clear my mind and astrology was law. But she also believed in education, literature etc and so I had the resources and support and encouragement to think for myself. If she'd taught me that my teachers were bigot sheeple or something I'd have turned out very differently and probably still believe in the healing power of crystals.

If anything her kids might be more inured to genderwoo because they see it as something their embarrassing nonbinarybirthingparent believes in.

Teenagers, maybe. 8 year olds, not so much. "Mum says I'm not a girl or a boy and I can decide which one I feel like and which one I want to be when I grow up. It doesn't matter what my body looks like I still have to choose".

Hell of a responsibility to put on a child's shoulders.

Exactly this. Non-binary is regressive, unscientific nonsense based on a belief in Gender Identity. They’re completely blind to the idea that people can live their lives without trying to fit into silly little boxes based on sexist stereotypes.

There was an episode of the Stella O’Malley/Sasha Ayad podcast A Wider Lens where they talk to a mother who allowed her young child to “choose” their own gender. Think it’s this one:

Well worth a listen. SPOILER: Letting your child decide if it’s a girl or a boy is not a good idea.

Oh I've never seen their pictures before, they don't look anything like I imagined them!! I usually listen to the podcast in audio only.

Related to the idea of "children rebelling" a lot of parents think that banning boyfriends/alcohol/sweets is the surest way to get children obsessed with them. In fact children allowed free rein with sweet food get fat, children who aren't supervised when teenagers end up pregnant/getting a girl pregnant/drinking, and close supervision is good for teenagers.

We have a non binary male where I work, he identifies as trans even though he has a girlfriend and daughter.
He makes more noise about trans rights than the transwoman in our group.