Could feminism and non binary be the same thing?

[cupofdecaf]

I'd consider myself a feminist moderate GC.

I've recently met a non binary person. It got me thinking. Could I just simply reject all gender stereotypes and be non binary?

I believe that gender is a social construct. Sex is a biological fact.

I'm a woman and mother. I doubt anyone looks at me and thinks I could be or identify as a man. I do wear men's clothes a fair bit (husbands cloths mostly because they're very comfortable).

I like the idea of rejecting the social expectations of gender. My question is would that make me non binary and if not what label would be appropriate.

NB I don't feel like I need a label but we're in a culture of labels. Also I doubt it would change a single thing but I'm curious.

Exactly. The boxes are fine, I’m just too special to be put in one. Magdalen Berns did a great video on this.

Did it? That's news to me and I find it surprising because I've been on the MN feminist boards talking about this stuff since before all the trans issues came in. I don't remember ever seeing the term gender-critical before then.

Yes; I remember asking a question specifically about the term way back when. It was probably around the time I was reading Delusions of Gender - iirc absolutely nothing to do with transgenderism.

The test I think is if you are walking past a group of drunk blokes, and they start calling out to you and harassing you, when you tell them you are actually non binary, will they stop and say ah sorry as you were then.

personally I feel the whole thinking on this topic is a waste of time and only happens because it is yet another convenient topic to politicise. also the hypersexualisation of both genders hasn't helped.

we are born with xx or xy (except for a few intersex individuals). we should be free to behave how we wish (while being civilised), dress how we wish, shack up with other adults or be single as we wish, wear make up or not etc. etc. who cares really?

its a waste of headspace in a world where a large proportion of humans live below the poverty line, don't have access to basic resources or are being tortured and killed. some of the people below the poverty line are here, in our country. our environment is in crisis, natural disasters abound. women are still being paid less than men and despite advances are still very much disadvantaged. racism, nationalism and fascism is on the rise.

let's deal with ALL these issues first before people start worrying about gender identities.

ps I am not denying the need for the GC movement, I am just saying the identity crises that has arisen from the TRA movement where everyone is question 'what gender they are' just seems so detached from reality. and this is not in relation to individuals who truly suffer from gender dysphoria (these numbers are very few). of course they should have access to the support they need and that is an entirely different scenario.

They are not the same at all.

Adopting the term "non-binary" implicitly accepts the stereotypes of 2 'genders'. I explicitly reject the stereotypes relating to the binary of sex and explicitly reject gender being anything other than a social construct. Instead of fighting against the stereoptypes, non-binary folk opt out completely. My understanding of feminism is the opposite of opting out.

The way I've heard it described is that the idea is to "expand the concept of gender" which (in theory) is eventually supposed to make the whole concept of gender roles in the first place dissolve because it does not make sense.

I agree with you that to me this as a solution also does not make sense, because in order to be "non-binary" or to "transition" from one gender to another, then you are reinforcing the idea of there BEING a binary (which you are somehow magically in between or outside of) - the argument as I understand it is that this is just one step and further steps will expand the concept of gender so much that people stop seeing gender and instead just see people.

I'm more on the GC side as in I don't really understand how this is meant to challenge things, to me it seems much more clear that the route to challenging sexism is to name sexism and label sexism and make sexism visible, not just pretend that it magically goes away because you've identified into a third gender.

It's also a bit complicated because of course neither NB people nor GC feminists are a monolith, we all individually have our own ideas and understanding that can't be boiled down to a simple one line explanation.

But I am also interested in understanding the logic from other sides too, especially ideas that don't make sense to me the first time I hear them. (I might be wrong too).

this

I think defining yourself as NB only makes sense if others play out the binary male female roles. So your identity needs to assume the identity of others. It's the height of arrogance.

Fair enough - I loved Delusions of Gender. Must re-read it.

Rejecting stereotypes is great, but why on earth would that mean you are a different category of human being or in need of a new label? Besides, it's pretty much impossible to avoid using/wearing/doing anything at all that could be described as stereotypically male or stereotypically female. So non-binary must presumably mean 'not embracing all the stereotypes of one sex or all the stereotypes of the other sex, but being a bit in-between'. And tbh that describes most of humanity, so why we'd need a separate label for it, goodness knows.

I think for some of the younger NB people (especially those who are biologically female), choosing that label is an attempt to fit how they feel personally with the messages about gender that they accept as the truth. By this I mean they are accept as truth the messages that everyone has an innate gender, how you dress/look/act is linked to your gender, biological sex is irrelevant and anyone who challenges any of this is a transphobic bigot. However, they don't personally have an overwhelming feeling of being 'man', or 'woman' and don't wish to dress or act according to any particular gender stereotype. The only way to explain how they feel without challenging the accepted wisdom on gender (which would make them a transphobe) is that they have a different gender that does not require them to feel or behave either 'man' or 'woman'. A lot of the non-binary young people that I know are also neuro diverse and I think this could be a factor.

I don't have a problem being a woman; my problem is with the way women are treated. And calling myself a new name isn't going to change that.

I think non binary is incompatible with feminism.

Feminism is about the liberation of all women, in part through rejecting gender stereotypes.

Being non binary is essentially trying to liberate yourself from the gender stereotypes society has chosen to attach to being female, but not trying to bring other women along with you. On the contrary, you require most other women to stay in their woman boxes in order for your non binary label to have any meaning.

On a practical level I just feel very sorry for young, naive girls and women who call themselves non binary. They'll still be the ones taking on all the housework after their maternity leave ends, and rushing back from work to do nursery pickup. Perhaps even more likely.

This probably puts me into the old fashioned/radical feminist category mentioned by a pp.

Separately I sort of disapprove of them rejecting being women. Like I would feel if I met someone of my race who wished they were a different race. It implies they think their own race is inferior. Women aren't inferior, we're fab

Rejecting gender stereotypes is fine, but refusing to be described as he or she then creates difficulties for others. Most people reject racial stereotypes but will still describe themselves as black, white, Romany, etc.

Rejecting gender stereotypes is great.
Rejecting the reality of sex (binary, dimorphic) is futile and leads to problems.

If we lived in a world where gender identity ideology ruled everything and was legally forced on everyone I would certainly identify as nonbinary, given that all the other alternatives would mean "I accept retrogressive and sexist beliefs about how women and men are supposed to behave and promise to follow them in my own life."

Also, even though becoming a trans man in that dystopian future would be the only way an AFAB (ha!) could seek equal treatment, to get there would require lifelong medical treatment and surgeries, and that is too high a cost, so nonbinary it would have to be.

But I very much doubt declaring nonbinariness in that world would reduce sexism and misogyny which would still be aimed at those who are AFAB, however they identify.

As we still have some choice, I choose not to belong to this new secular religion, but regard being a woman as meaning that I am an adult human being who inhabits a female body and who is treated as female by others.

That treatment includes being discriminated against, being sexually attacked and harassed, being judged lesser in all sorts of ways, and it is important that we can name those things clearly.

At the present time, a woman who chooses the nonbinary label reveals several things she perhaps is not intending to reveal:

First, that she defines 'woman' as a set of sexist stereotypes about femininity and a bundle of regressive gender roles for women.

Second, that she believes she can identify out of those, while women who don't make that effort obviously like being treated as Stepford Wives or Barbie dolls or pornified views of womanhood/femaleness.

Third, and assuming she participates in the new demands for inclusive language and the erasure of the female sex, that she is not only abandoning other women to being treated with sexism but further strengthens this by weakening any connection between being female and being a woman.

This comes about when 'inclusive language' is demanded (though not about the male sex) so that nonbinary female people don't feel excluded:

When the group of people previously called 'women' are now renamed as ovary-havers, wombcarriers, menstruators, or simply people-who-do-a-thing-only-female-people-can-do, the rest of us who don't believe in abstract gender identities are getting our definitions of our own womanhood invalidated and replaced by dehumanising synecdoches.

"I like the idea of rejecting the social expectations of gender. My question is would that make me non binary and if not what label would be appropriate".

No. It wouldn't make you "non-binary". You'd still be a woman, no "label" necessary.

That's how the school describe them they said he might make more friends if he bought in a different cup rather than his pink one I took him shopping he chose a brighter pink cup 🤷‍♀️

I identify as genderfuck. But sex is real.

Hallelujah

I am utterly appalled by that! (The school, not your son who had an excellent reaction.)

I hear you, it would just feel to me like we've all been bullied out of using language to describe we are women and I can't do that. Only about 100 years we've been voting and now we can't use words to describe ourselves. It's exhausting.

Provided your son continues to resist the sexist brain washing, he is the future we need.

Gender-free!

Why even go down the route of trying to see if some made-up nonsense shoe fits -it's a dumbass construct, as you acknowledged. You're a woman: sex is real. That's all there's to it.