How to lose friends and alienate people? Be openly GC

[ProfessorFlitwick]

I have recently "come out" as GC to my friends, and I am sad by some of their responses. It turns out that for some of them, me thinking a woman is a biological female is an insurmountable hurdle to our friendship. I'm sad to see women who I know are intelligent just repeating the gender ideology dogma without being open to applying any critical thought to it.

Atheists and theists can respectfully debate the existence of God, and still be friends. They understand they are debating the wider concept of God, and not attacking each other personally or denying the other person's right to hold their view. GI supporters seem incapable of comprehending this way of debating something, any form of discussion is seen as a direct "attack" on the "existence of trans people" and must be immediately shut down. When I think of the types of people in history who try to silence or intimidate people who disagree with them, it doesn't bring up a great bunch of people.

Does anyone else want to vent about their experiences of navigating (or losing) friendships with GI supporters?

Would he sleep with a TW?

I’m early 40s, most of my friends are similar age, my partner is a few years younger. My partner and I both see there are some tricky issues to work through in limited areas in treating TW as W but regard the current media and political narrative as generally very biased against trans people.

Most of my friends have mixed feelings, apart from one who is strongly GC, and those who are L G or B, who are all very supportive of trans inclusion.

I have tried many times to engage in sensible discussion on here and only a small minority have been willing to do the same - most responses have ranged from patronising to downright offensive.

Well that's also the experience of gender critical posters and does not seem to be a reason to just plop down accusations whilst refusing to substantiate them. Perhaps try again. There really are receptive people who will engage in proper conversations even if they are from opposing sides of the rights debate.

You won't get patronised by me. And plenty of others. Unfortunately, the dialog gets stuck in the long grass of definitions, and that's when wires get crossed

I find some of these discussions odd I know several transwomen 50+ and all know they are not women but are men in reality. And no one minded what they wore as they were not claiming to be literal women. The world has gone mad

OP are any of your friends lesbians and single? A month on a lesbian dating app being pressured by TW in very male ways would change their minds!! That's what peaked me, and then my daughters tells me a boy is using the girls toilet at her school and I read the school policies and saw she would be receiving internal suspension for expressing GC views. Until it affected me and my family I'd not really thought about it and would have been "be kind" as I've suffered myself so wouldn't wish hate on others. It's only once you are GC and actually look up all the sources and look at definitions of what is being called a "hate crime" and what is happening in women's prisons and sports etc etc that you see the truth because until very recently you had to really look for yourself it's not in the news.

I'm mid 30s and I find it's the women with kids who are most likely GC. Those younger than me more likely GI. Unfortunately those older than me that I know irl don't care because "it doesn't affect me" but I don't know any older educated women and most older women I know see a woman's place as homemaker and mother so their gender stereotypes fit well.

I think you need to have had happened to you or to have seen happening: been passed over for men, had men take advantage or opportunity. Women made to feel uncomfortable to accommodate males etc etc The sort of subtle misogyny and sexism that is rife but not evident until you are trying to progress a career or are a mother or trying to date a woman as a woman. When you understand how the world really treats men and women then you can see/listen to the evidence that GI is really anti women and MRA.

All the friends who distanced themselves from me when I first started saying stuff like ‘There is no such thing as woman with a penis’ back in 2018 have all since reappeared in my life as newly minted terfs.

Give it time, everyone will be tervish eventually.

Yes, there's been a fair bit of that in my circle, too.

Yes. Thats how it used to be.

Things have indeed changed to a terrifying degree, in a few short years.

Re not having a problem with TM, I do have a problem with TM as well as TW, if they are expecting me to believe or treat them as if they literally have changed sex, because it’s insulting to me (it disrespects my right to observe and believe in reality) and I also think it’s disrespectful to men as they can have no idea what it’s actually like to be one.

TW as a class are far more harmful to women when they are in our sports, prisons, etc than vice versa, which ironically is a clear difference on the basis of sex - and that’s the reason it’s a huge issue for women’s rights and safety. But it’s still not fair on gay men or straight women to expect them to date/sleep with TM, and it’s still controlling narcissism or totalitarianism to try to enforce other people’s beliefs and thoughts. I also think it’s discriminatory against various groups who might use the “wrong” pronoun inadvertently such as people with autism, learning difficulties, don’t have good English (or the language of wherever they are), dementia etc.

I'm a bit concerned about a recent trip I'm making with a very old gay friend who is always sharing pink news stories about trans rights, he's probably noticed that I don't tend to like them.
I am not planning on bringing up the subject and am rehearsing ways to change the subject as I love him dearly and would be very upset if we fell out.

I do agree some GC Twitter accounts and posters can be actually transphobic, as in being nasty to trans people, mocking them for their appearance etc. I don’t feel comfortable with that mainly because I see a lot of people getting drawn into this who I think are not mentally well and I think mockery and sneering are not helpful and could make things worse for individuals. Many people who have been sucked into the ideology because they’ve been told it’s the answer to their unhappiness, will eventually detransition and have to live with pain and regret. I don’t want to make it harder for them. This is one reason I don’t join GC groups in RL, because I have some reservations. I also don’t think gender (meaning cultural associations with/representation of sex) is always bad, as it has an important societal function - it’s just bad if it’s sexist and rigidly enforced.

On the other hand, it’s seen as ok in society generally to question and disagree with people who are asserting untruths and illogical, internally inconsistent belief systems and trying to impose them others. Being expected to go along with that and not question it, and even worse having that made illegal as is happening in some place, is crazy and terrifying.

About religion, this whole thing has made me a lot more respectful towards religions people. On the whole they don’t expect me to share their beliefs, and furthermore their beliefs are not demonstrably, factually wrong like GI is. We don’t know what happens after death or what exists on some kind of spiritual plane - no one does. As an atheist I could be wrong, because nothing about those kinds of ideas and beliefs is testable. Gender ideology is OTOH a clearly circular argument and goes against reality that we can observe and test.

If he absolutely insists on discussing it I would recommend asking him to think about gender non conforming ‘proto gay’ children (children who will grow up to be lesbians and gay men if allowed to develop naturally and experience puberty without interference).
A lot of gay men are naturally GNC in childhood, even if they eventually grow up to be ‘non scene’ masculine men who don’t ping anyone’s gaydar.

The gay men who have come out as GC and spoken out against the trans movement are often initially motivated by the thought ‘that could’ve been me if I were born x years later’ because their childhood stories are so similar to high profile transitioned children like Jazz Jennings and Jackie Green.

Children who would otherwise grow up to be gay are having their sexual orientation blocked from developing, little pre gay boys are being made in ‘straight women’ via chemical castration.
Young lesbians are absorbing the idea that it’s better to move through the world with others perceiving you to be a man than it is to be a GNC woman, and butch lesbians, always a marginalised group with little to no celebrity representation, haven’t benefitted at all from the mass Stonewalling of society post same sex marriage.

I think one of the main reasons I have avoided being ostracised for my GC views is because I have a ROGD stepchild - everyone who knows our family can see with their own eyes that it just doesn’t make any sense, and that my DH’s same sex attracted DD has retreated into a fake male identity after relentless bullying for being a ‘lezza’ in high school.
She has also developed a very obvious restrictive eating disorder, so it’s impossible for anyone who knows her to maintain the media promoted fantasy of ‘social transition improves mental health in teenagers’

Homophobia is still real and even a totally accepting family cannot protect a child/teen from the horror of homophobic bullying.
I worked (briefly) for a gay men’s lifestyle magazine in the late 90s and while I think it has gotten better for young gay men in a number of ways, the difficulties of growing up with an emergent same sex attraction are still just as hard, only now you are expected to be out and proud and dressed as a Drag Queen for the school disco, rather than allowed to discover yourself gradually and come out only when it feels right and/or necessary (eg because you want your mum to meet your boyfriend).

My DH’s DD had absorbed so many stories of LGB teens being rejected by their parents that our ‘we don’t mind who you bring home as long as they treat you in a loving and respectful manner’’ was disappointing to her, rather than reassuring. The internet messaging of the late 00s (identity politics/progressive stack/boomer hate) made her expect rejection and when rejection didn’t happen she didn’t know how to process it (coming out a second time, this time as gay man*, did result in some highly anticipated parental pushback!)

The mixed messages of Gay is Great and a school full of rainbow decorations whilst being relentlessly bullied by your peers for coming out is perhaps psychologically worse than growing up gay in a time before schools had LGBT clubs and being a gay teen was a less public experience?

I hope we can find a way to help same sex attracted teens towards self acceptance without forcing them into a new stereotype box (boys in the blue box, girls in the pink box, ‘queers’ in the rainbow box).
A no tolerance policy for bullying would be a great start.

*gay man in newspeak = female GNC teen attracted to other female GNC teens!

Many of us choose friends based on whoever is in our immediate work or social environment - and these friendships tend to be based around those sorts of commnalities. However, often the time comes when we have to more consciously choose our friends according to our own core values and persepctives on life. Sounds like this is the time for you.

I've ditched six friends and distanced myself from my sister, two friends for ongoing angst on disagreement on trans issues. Best decisions I've made.

@RethinkingLife

Thanks for the heads up on Havel's Greengrocer. I've not heard of the analogy before but it perfectly encapsulates how I feel about pronouns in work email signatures and why it is a hill I am prepared to go to disciplinary for (if necessary).

Very interesting, and very sad for the kids involved.

A medic who quit her gender dysphoria clinic cited one reason (among many) as being that she felt that gay children were trying to change gender to align their sexuality - ie to avoid being gay. And the clinic wasn’t acknowledging or tackling that. The real issue for them was homophobia within school and society.

Agree. This has been my experience. There are new people to meet, interesting discussions to be had - there are positives to this situation.

I asked him, he said no, but that means nothing as he also wouldn't sleep with someone who is morbidly obese or a nazi.
OK then!
Fucking arsehole.

But those other examples - obesity/ Nazi - aren’t comparable equivalents. If he’s heterosexual and believes that TW are women, would he be attracted to a TW, hypothetically? If not, why not?

I don’t think he’ll be able to give you an answer that’s consistent with believing that men can be women.

He couldn't.
This was months ago BTW, we don't speak now.

"I’m on the fence with puberty blockers but would like to think a doctor can tell which children are absolutely serious and sure in their own minds that it’s what they want."

I liked thinking that too, but it turned out not to be true.

The others probably actually agree with you but are too scared of the aggression of the pro trans ones to speak up.

Not IRL but I’ve had online friendships impacted. I’ve blocked the most aggressive bullying ones including those who weaponise their own “trans kids” to bully others into either acquiescence or silence and generally avoid the topic now as I cba even reading the mantras of the brainwashed. I know for a fact though there are many who of the groups who agree with me but are too scared to risk the backlash and abuse I’ve had

My daughter is 29 and she knows it's a load of shite.