How to lose friends and alienate people? Be openly GC

[ProfessorFlitwick]

I have recently "come out" as GC to my friends, and I am sad by some of their responses. It turns out that for some of them, me thinking a woman is a biological female is an insurmountable hurdle to our friendship. I'm sad to see women who I know are intelligent just repeating the gender ideology dogma without being open to applying any critical thought to it.

Atheists and theists can respectfully debate the existence of God, and still be friends. They understand they are debating the wider concept of God, and not attacking each other personally or denying the other person's right to hold their view. GI supporters seem incapable of comprehending this way of debating something, any form of discussion is seen as a direct "attack" on the "existence of trans people" and must be immediately shut down. When I think of the types of people in history who try to silence or intimidate people who disagree with them, it doesn't bring up a great bunch of people.

Does anyone else want to vent about their experiences of navigating (or losing) friendships with GI supporters?

With regard to pps discussing the demographic of each side, I have noticed that those protesting Posie that I know are all white, 'cis' (ahem) and child free. I did wonder if that could be relevant, although I know there's more to it than that as Brice pointed out.

All creatives, all straight, one a bloke embracing what we would have previously called a feminine side. But they are older - late 30s to early 50s, so I kind of expected more sense from them.

If hadn't had kids I wonder if I'd still be a virtue-signalling 'ally' myself.

I don't know anyone who thinks a trans woman was born female? People (like me) who can see both sides are not stupid.

I'm not being specific about this thread, but others on the subject I've read previously are very close to the knuckle if not beyond it.

GC and transphobia are different, but sometimes a transphobe could put their opinions across as being GC. Its a very thin line.

40s, 50s and 60s.

@Ballamorie the trans side definitely share some blame for that. There was an opportunity to keep this debate civilised and instead it was overrun with misogyny and violent rhetoric. GC boards however seem to be policed in a way that TRA boards never are.

There are sadly some exceptions in this age bracket. I had a heated discussion with a friend who emphatically believes that a man can change sex. The disappointing thing is that my friend trained as a nurse. I don’t understand how anyone with medical training could believe that sex is not binary. Luckily both my friend and I are mature enough to agree to disagree and we are still friends.

And sometimes misogynists bill their views as GI.

What makes you think GC can’t see both sides?

By 'borderline transphobic' do you mean 'could be interpreted as transphobic'? I have seen very few posts here that are transphobic by a reasonable definition of transphobic, and they are normally deleted by the very active moderators. There is certainly a degree of frustration with the extremist positions of some 'trans rights activists', but nothing that argues against legitimate trans rights (such as protection from employment discrimination).

The one thing that I would like to change is the assumption by some that MTF transition is virtually always motivated by fetish; I think that a wish to escape societal expectations of men is a plausible motivation for many less visible transwomen, those who don't dress in a highly sexualised way and who don't deliberately appropriate women's rights.

I'm lucky in that every single one of my friends is gender critical and we have very open discussions about it. Same with my sports team, it has been brought up frequently.

I did have a bit of a falling out with my sister initially but she did some reading and is full on TERF now and goes out stickering with her teacher pals. 🤭

Where I do have to watch what I say is with work colleagues.

I think the evolution of post religion and post liberal society, fractured by social media, and demanding binary positions, is creating the worst excesses of "if you're not with us, you're against us". EU Leave/Remain, Trump/liberals, now TWAW/GC, and many more.

I miss the days when it was socialism/capitalism, Python/Goodies, Starsky and Hutch/The Professionals, Blur/Oasis, Agent Scully/Buffy, lol

I also think decades of pop psychology and inane self help mantas leading to this Authentic Self mindset, and the move away from any judging of individuals' behaviours or group mantras, has led to the mother of all contradictions, a softening of the underbelly of society at large (no principles, no standards, just gooey "feel good"ism) in a brittle shell of infinite and eternal conflict, fragile pride, absolute lack of self reflection (because if you looked in the mirror and were really truthful with yourself, you'd shed yourself of juvenile notions). A hard carapace over a soft belly is great for insects, not humans.

Stir this up, and weaponise it via leftist politics, where society is now replaced by the self (the left's spin on Thatcherism "there is no such thing as society", indeed our Maggie unbeknownst at the time was the starting gun for the breakdown in liberal and social mores, codified and expanded by Blair, allowed to ferment by Cameron to Sunak, now championed by Starmer and Davey and Youssaf), and we have the situation we have today.

Fuck knows how we extricate ourselves from this. I have my theories, but they're pretty wild. And because the rot of post religion and post liberalism are now both entrenching and accelerating, it won't be painless.

If someone has gone as far as cutting their dick off, I acknowledge their commitment, and would treat them with respect as their chosen gender. And that’s what your friend as a nurse has to do.

However, do I personally think cutting bits off and sticking them somewhere else changes your gender - no more than cosmetic surgery would make me Korean.

I’m about to turn 60 and although I didn’t initially know what the post meant I eventually got the gist. I believe personally that a person who undergoes a sex change deserves to be treated as the gender they have transitioned to. I admit there are grey areas, sport, prison and so on. But did you know that prisoners sexually assault others even when the same gender? I’m on the fence with puberty blockers but would like to think a doctor can tell which children are absolutely serious and sure in their own minds that it’s what they want. Seeing documentaries about what is involved in physically transitioning makes me absolutely believe that people who put themselves through it absolutely should be treated as the gender they feel they are. It’s inhumane not to. I have never thought that a trans person wasn’t a real woman/man.

I've been feeling really low and conflicted over the last few days. I'm firmly GC. So many people who I follow on social media and whom I like and respect have been posting increasingly GI posts and calling out people like myself as Bigots.
And I just don't know what to do with that. I enjoy their content most of the time. It is not usually political in any way. Two of them are Gay men who produce travel vlogs. I enjoy the vlogs they produce. I guess I suspected what their views would be but could ignore it because it had never been out in the open. But now I'm really struggling to enjoy any content they create whilst knowing that they despise people like me.

I’ll approach with caution this topic irl

On here I’ll just say what I think

I’ve recently thought about becoming more motivated to show support to pro women groups. It’s a leap for me though

What I’m seeing is Orwellian

The threats, clamp downs and abuse if facts are stated

We are fully in it. Look at mn too, moving threads that are pro women but leaving any with anti women abuse in AIBU

Posters happier to call transphobia and bigot over yes to single sex spaces

I’ll do what I can for my dd but the state of play concerns me

I don't know anyone who thinks a trans woman was born female?

If you stepped outside of your social circle (or even country, this is a worldwide thing after all) you might be surprised how many do think that unfortunately. Same as those who think taking hormones can turn a man into a woman but still believe a woman having a full hysterectomy and mastectomy due to cancer, with no hrt, stays a woman. There is no joining the dots. No thinking at all just blind belief.

I've had some CBT to help manage my emotions on all this. I've made good progress, but my last battle is dread realisation that civic society is now uncivic, unscientific, and allergic to dissent, from politicians, to media, to artists, even doctors and scientists. I'm still struggling to reconcile this.

Have you considered how this works though? If you believe a male who has extreme body modifications is the ‘woman’ they aimed to become, do you feel the same about the people do the extreme body modifications to live as a lizard or a snake?

And yes, same sex assaults happen in prison as they do in real life. A woman assaulted by another woman in prison will not be left pregnant though. And that female inmate has a chance at fighting off the female attacker. Do you think that a male prisoner with a grip strength over 100 % (I think punch power is over 160%) higher on average than female grip strength is going to be fought off?

And considering how many female inmates have been sexually abused by male people, do you think it is cruel to make them live in close contact with male people?

It is the inconsistencies that are the issue. If you treat one group of people with identities getting extreme body modifications one way and another a different way, that is discrimination. How do you explain that?

I’m on the fence with puberty blockers but would like to think a doctor can tell which children are absolutely serious and sure in their own minds that it’s what they want.

Surely all the testimony of detransitioners and medical whistleblowers have shown this is not true.

The whole point of fast-track transitioning at puberty is not to question the child’s gender affirmation.

I believe personally that a person who undergoes a sex change deserves to be treated as the gender they have transitioned to.

I used to be 'if they've gone the whole way' then I'll treat them as a woman . I hate referring it to as sex change surgery, because that is a lie - all they are doing is altering the external shape of the person.

Then I realised that from a practical point of view that is so difficult to treat transwomen who have had surgery as women. How do I allow Nicola who has no penis into the women's toilets / wards /women in tech group but exclude Amber who has just grown their hair out and started shopping at Per Una? Do I ask for a quick peek in their knickers?

Then it gets into messy situations like maybe making the GRC depend on full surgery, or maybe creating a 'super GRC' to recognise those who have gone all the way. There is no way I would want to force someone to have gender reassignment surgery because it is such an experimental field and clearly can have long on-going health implications.

I have friends where I would not open this conversation, because I know that it would cause deep fractures in our relationship.

Sarah Jane Baker cut off his own testicles in prison. He has recently been recalled after inciting violence against women. I do not want to share spaces with him, penis or no penis.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12468359/Trans-activist-served-30-years-jail-kidnap-attempted-murder-recalled-prison-breaching-licence-cleared-encouraging-violence-telling-crowd-punch-TERFs-face.html

It drives me insane. I met a long standing friend for lunch a while ago and she made it clear that she thought it was a shame the Tavistock closed down. I said I didn't think children should be given puberty blockers especially as we don't let them drive or take drugs or do other stuff they're too young to do but she clearly disagreed so we changed the subject. It's depressing. Some people on Facebook have de friended me too as a result and I dare not discuss it with my family as I think they've all drunk the Kool aid.

“I don't know anyone who thinks a trans woman was born female? People (like me) who can see both sides are not stupid.”

How do you think the wrong body narrative was developed?

I think you will find that there are some, maybe a lot, who say they were born female and have always been female but I am in the wrong body. They are now many who describe themselves as female, and a subset of those use the phrase was always female.

Now you say that there is transphobia on some threads. Do you understand that you denying that these people were born female but in the wrong body would be transphobic by many? We all have our opinions of what is transphobic or not. I find the best way is to report any that you see and if MN agree then it is easily deleted.

I like you to point me at a single transphobic message on these boards. You won't because you can't.

My DD is 28. She is fully on board TWAW because school taught it, she went to college and they taught it.

Well that is tragic, and bloody awful. What's happened to our schools?

@Apollo441 I think you'll find quite a few if you look carefully. Please don't be so aggressive.

Please link them as I haven't seen a single Transphobic thread or post.

I'm guessing you wont because there are not any.
Gender Critical posts yes.
Transphobic post no.