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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Mary Beard in the Herald.

97 replies

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2023 20:36

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23825192.mary-beard-scottish-independence-trans-rights-romans/

'On trans rights, Beard says: “I don’t fully understand why, more than anything else, it’s proved to be an issue we find very hard to discuss. Why did this, of all issues, become so toxic? There may be, and I’m sure there are, some transphobes, trans-haters, out there, but most people I think aren’t in that category. Many of them are puzzled, worried, about where this leaves cis women.
“Those are utterly reasonable questions that we ought to be able to raise, but that’s proved impossible, and I’m not clear why … I want to explore what’s preventing us managing to have a conversation about this.”
Beard says she’d like to make a programme about the difficulties around discussing the issue, but adds: “I’m probably too much of a coward. That’s a shame as we need to find a way in which this can be talked about because people get terribly damaged on all sides - not just one side.”
As a feminist, does she perceive a clash between ‘trans rights and women’s rights’? “I hope there isn’t,” she says. “It’s presented as if there is, and I can see where people are coming from, but what we ought to be thinking is ‘how do we square the circle here?’. I hope in 20 years time we aren’t talking like this.”'

🙄

History woman Mary Beard on Scottish independence, trans rights and the Romans

MARY Beard sits at the desk in her study, a bronze bust of the Ancient Greek poet Sappho high on a shelf behind her.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23825192.mary-beard-scottish-independence-trans-rights-romans

OP posts:
RebelliousCow · 02/10/2023 11:18

My reading of her speech was that she does understand the issue, but regrets that people cannot speak more openly about it. Her main concern is that she does not get herself embroiled in a horrible twitter storm as a result of that.
She tries to present herself as very contemporray in her documentaries about Rome - and in a the most recent series she talked at one point about some evidence which pointed to men presenting as women.

Brefugee · 02/10/2023 11:32

Shraree · 02/10/2023 11:14

It must be really annoying being a famous women who is seen to be intelligent as they will always be asked the question about their stance on trans issues and feminism. 10 years ago it was always about balancing motherhood with their career. I bet male historians aren't asked what their opinions are on this matter. Fucking annoying.

Women in the public eye must always represent All Women. But NAMALT.

Go figure

Wolvesart · 02/10/2023 11:49

I think she’s trying to suggest keeping dialogue open and moving on from what she perceives as a kind of deadlock. I do get this view point but she might not be coming at it from a place that fascilitates moving on. So it ends up more wasted words

BadSkiingMum · 02/10/2023 11:50

Disappointing, but I wonder if it is a factor of her career stage? Her best work is probably behind her and she doesn’t want the hassle. She may also now have the insulation of more money and a quieter lifestyle, making all this seem at one remove.

I would argue that gender identity politics has the greatest power to damage younger women, who lose out on scholarships, sporting opportunities and awards. Younger women are trying to build their careers, so ‘cancellation’ can have a huge impact. Younger women are likely to be poorer, using public facilities, communal gyms and may be going through the great sex-based upheaval of motherhood. All of these are the friction points where trans activists’ demands conflict with women’s sex-based needs and rights.

‘I’m alright’, indeed.

Sausagenbacon · 02/10/2023 11:50

Fucking annoying.. I find it fucking annoying that she gave such a pathetic answer.
FWIW MB was on MN at one point.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 02/10/2023 12:00

As she implies later in the article, she was ducking behind Roman fort walls there!

I don't blame her. Women in public life get really hammered for expressing their real views on this subject.

Tinysoxxx · 02/10/2023 12:08

Through mumsnet we can all say what we want (within guidelines) but it doesn’t affect our personal and professional lives. I think Mary Beard said as much as she could without getting too much hassle. Then I saw the article above and saw that she did anyway. She can’t win. I have sympathy for her.

JKRowling is the exception, an exceptional famous woman who has indeed caused herself no end of hassle by articulating biological facts so eloquently. And also putting her money into helping women and children. She is extraordinary.

Original poster
ArabellaScott · 02/10/2023 12:56

I have every sympathy for anyone who is afraid of getting abuse. And thanks for the article on the response she had to the freedom of speech letter, I hadn't seen that. That's a horrible experience she's had and I'm not surprised she's wary.

OP posts:
BlackForestCake · 02/10/2023 17:25

It’s not the conflict between Israel and Palestine she’s being asked to comment on or the discovery of a new law of physics

The discourse on transgenderism is much more toxic than any argument about Israel/Palestine, at least in this country.

Swamphag · 02/10/2023 17:39

ProtocolDroid · 02/10/2023 08:01

I have no inside information, but you know interviews are edited? It’s possible the cis was added by whoever edited the piece, for some reason.

That was my assumption.

londonmummy1966 · 02/10/2023 18:52

ArabellaScott · 02/10/2023 12:56

I have every sympathy for anyone who is afraid of getting abuse. And thanks for the article on the response she had to the freedom of speech letter, I hadn't seen that. That's a horrible experience she's had and I'm not surprised she's wary.

MB's husband is quite a bit older than she is - I wonder if that also colours her thinking. It's one thing to be prepared to speak out when it's only you who might suffer the backlash. GIven the hassle the trans activists can cause to people in their own homes I could understand her worrying that she didn't want to risk aggression around an elderly man.

AutumnCrow · 02/10/2023 23:41

Public intellectuals who thus far admit to being a bit confused by stuff so glaringly obvious that even Steve fucking Barclay finally gets it:

Mary Beard
Naomi Klein
Dara Ó Briain

What a time to be alive etc.

Poudretteite · 03/10/2023 07:41

Bit of a weird statement in that she's happy to say she's going along with something that's wrong for an easy life, and that she wouldn't in any other historical context either.

FrancescaContini · 03/10/2023 08:29

AutumnCrow · 02/10/2023 23:41

Public intellectuals who thus far admit to being a bit confused by stuff so glaringly obvious that even Steve fucking Barclay finally gets it:

Mary Beard
Naomi Klein
Dara Ó Briain

What a time to be alive etc.

Agree. It’s really not confusing. Very young children “get” that there are only two sexes, so what’s the problem? (Rhetorical question…)

nettie434 · 03/10/2023 09:35

As well as the freedom of speech letter, she was also criticised for a tweet over Oxfam in Haiti:

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2018/02/18/mary-beards-tweets-on-oxfam-controversy-shut-down-by-dr-priya-gopal-107117

It's quite similar in that she had not anticipated the fallout. I think she was always prepared for comments from people like AA Gill about her appearance but she seems less prepared for criticism when she is talking about something not directly related to Roman history.

Mary Beard's tweets on Oxfam controversy shut down by Dr. Priya Gopal

This comes after Beard caused controversy tweeting about Haiti

https://thetab.com/uk/cambridge/2018/02/18/mary-beards-tweets-on-oxfam-controversy-shut-down-by-dr-priya-gopal-107117

RebelliousCow · 03/10/2023 09:39

Mary Beard is entitled as much as anyone else to decide what her priorities are. She is under no obligation to be the voice for anyone. I think she's intimated as strongly as she feels able her position and is prioritising her mental health and public reputation over taking up arms.

DeadbeatYoda · 04/10/2023 14:30

Love Mary Beard, she's just so reasonable.

DeadbeatYoda · 04/10/2023 14:33

@Positanoprincipessa this venom you spew is as bad as the other end of this polarised debate. Your comment illustrates exactly what Beard is discussing. We need to have a sensible, grown up conversation about how to move forward, not call each other vicious names.

Original poster
ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 14:35

DeadbeatYoda · 04/10/2023 14:33

@Positanoprincipessa this venom you spew is as bad as the other end of this polarised debate. Your comment illustrates exactly what Beard is discussing. We need to have a sensible, grown up conversation about how to move forward, not call each other vicious names.

Maybe start by refraining from telling people they are 'spewing venom', in that case? Be the change!

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 04/10/2023 14:47

“Those are utterly reasonable questions that we ought to be able to raise, but that’s proved impossible, and I’m not clear why … I want to explore what’s preventing us managing to have a conversation about this.”

How about Stonewall's NO DEBATE Mary.

'Cancel culture is, she feels, “wildly exaggerated. I’m not saying it doesn’t entirely exist.

Beard says she’d like to make a programme about the difficulties around discussing the issue, but adds: “I’m probably too much of a coward.

This is because you are terrified of the cancel culture which you say is 'wildly exaggerated'!

I mean, come on. Join the dots. I thought you were supposed to be an intelligent woman.

napody · 04/10/2023 20:26

ArabellaScott · 01/10/2023 21:40

It's interesting, though, that we seem to be getting to the point where many people feel that they are in some way obliged to comment on the topic, even if that's just to say 'I'm too scared to comment'.

I wonder if there's a tipping point arriving, where the silent (silenced) majority takes the first tentative step towards saying 'I'm not saying anything', which is pointedly not saying TWAW.

In an exasperating kind of a way I suppose it's progress. The first step away from NO DEBATE is saying 'there is no debate where there should be one'.

The golden bridge is being built one fucking brick at a time.

I agree.
This is nothing like what Naomi Klein said! Mary Beard wants there to be a conversation. Definitely dipping a toe in there... and I'm grateful for all the clever people who are. She has a lot to lose and even admits she's 'being a coward'... which itself makes her much less of one.

napody · 04/10/2023 20:29

WallaceinAnderland · 04/10/2023 14:47

“Those are utterly reasonable questions that we ought to be able to raise, but that’s proved impossible, and I’m not clear why … I want to explore what’s preventing us managing to have a conversation about this.”

How about Stonewall's NO DEBATE Mary.

'Cancel culture is, she feels, “wildly exaggerated. I’m not saying it doesn’t entirely exist.

Beard says she’d like to make a programme about the difficulties around discussing the issue, but adds: “I’m probably too much of a coward.

This is because you are terrified of the cancel culture which you say is 'wildly exaggerated'!

I mean, come on. Join the dots. I thought you were supposed to be an intelligent woman.

She is. I wouldn't be surprised if she's trying to find the answer to the question 'what's the mildest thing I can say that will get me called transphobic?' Or 'if I say something as close to neutral as I can, which side is the abuse going to come from?'

Am I ridiculously optimistic?
I feel nothing but depressed at the tories using the whole thing as their populist bandwagon. I'd rather an equivocal, thinking-out-loud Mary Beard than that.

JustSpeculation · 04/10/2023 21:07

Her casual use of "cis" suggests to me that Mary Beard is still looking at trans women as a kind of woman rather than a different way of being male. Give her time.....

TheMarzipanDildo · 04/10/2023 21:38

Well I get the impression from that that’s she’s on our side (it boils down to “you can’t say anything these days!”) but has worded it in a slightly ambiguous way.

I’m not going to have a go anyway. And actually I don’t think everyone is obliged to have a strong and settled opinion about the things I personally feel passionately about.