Mary Beard in the Herald.

[ArabellaScott]

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/23825192.mary-beard-scottish-independence-trans-rights-romans/

'On trans rights, Beard says: “I don’t fully understand why, more than anything else, it’s proved to be an issue we find very hard to discuss. Why did this, of all issues, become so toxic? There may be, and I’m sure there are, some transphobes, trans-haters, out there, but most people I think aren’t in that category. Many of them are puzzled, worried, about where this leaves cis women.
“Those are utterly reasonable questions that we ought to be able to raise, but that’s proved impossible, and I’m not clear why … I want to explore what’s preventing us managing to have a conversation about this.”
Beard says she’d like to make a programme about the difficulties around discussing the issue, but adds: “I’m probably too much of a coward. That’s a shame as we need to find a way in which this can be talked about because people get terribly damaged on all sides - not just one side.”
As a feminist, does she perceive a clash between ‘trans rights and women’s rights’? “I hope there isn’t,” she says. “It’s presented as if there is, and I can see where people are coming from, but what we ought to be thinking is ‘how do we square the circle here?’. I hope in 20 years time we aren’t talking like this.”'

🙄

She pretty much says there is a clash between women’s and trans rights, doesn’t she?
”I hope there isn’t, but it’s presented as though there is, and I can see where they’re coming from “. That “I can see where they’re coming from” is her agreeing with there being a clash, isn’t it?

Disappointing

But not surprising

Maybe if you squint, on a dim moonless night, without reading glasses.

How telling that MB thinks that the world needs a programme made by her about this particular issue. Why? What’s her expertise apart from being a ‘public intellectual’?

I like her books and other work on Rome but she should stick with what she knows. Navel-gazing (oh my cowardice!) from famous, rich, Cambridge academic … nah.

The honourable thing to do would have been to reference those academics who have had the guts to analyse the issue (Alice Sullivan, Mary Leng, Selina Todd …), not engage in more self-promotion.

The entire article is to promote her new book.... why wouldn't she self-promote in an article designed to promote her book?

I don't agree with her language but I kind of see where she is coming from .

In my house tonight I was talking to my kids about the lack of freedom of speech that there is now around ideas as compared to 3 decades ago when I was in 6th form, as my son is now.

My son is GC but my daughter is not. I just can't discuss ideas around this with her because it causes awful arguments, she is autistic and gender non conforming so I have a worry she will decide to identify as non binary or as a boy so Im worried to push it.

But I have started talking to my kids about the fact that freedom of speech is diminishing as a concept and I do think, to an extent, that Mary Beard has a point about lack of ability to have a dialogue. This , of course, is not the problem of women but the opposing sides on this have to be less entrenched in order to move forward. I won't win my daughter's heart by telling her she is wrong for example.

I don't know what the answer is, I don't really think that Mary Beard thinks that men are women or that women should lose our rights in favour of men. I just think she sees that this has become an impossible situation. She's not brave enough to call out the reasons for the entrenchment or to take sides. That's a shame. But I don't think she is entirely wrong in her opinion on this issue.

What I took her to mean here is that there should be a way in a reasonable society to make sure everyone can live with dignity. That there should be a way to make it work.

I think she is taking the view that basically it is good faith problem, where the people involved are really trying to express their legitimate situations and needs. So AGP and how it escalates is not on her radar, and she's assuming that the medical/psychiatric people are behaving according to normal ethical and research practices.

Fair point, Flickersy. And I do like Beard’s work in general. But this is a serious matter which has cost many academic women dearly and Beard’s response to it seems inadequate to me.

'Cis', though. From a Romanist.

On this side of what, exactly, Mary? And who is on this side of whatever that might be? What are you actually on about? Did cis women inhabit Cisalpine Gaul? Please define your terms and your intent if you are going to transpose Latin words into po-mo theory.

I read that differently - I imagined that the reasons she's hinting at for it not being possible to talk about this are ones the TRAs wouldn't want exposed. She's very much a feminist. It's mild but I don't think this is a pro-gender woo statement at all.

And admitting she'd be too much of a coward to make that program is an indirect tribute to Stock, Joyce etc who speak up.

I really admire Mary for lots of different reasons but really dislike her use of the C word here. She seems to want to be seen as sitting on the fence. Shame, as she’s obviously a great “thinker” and has a huge public following.

I have no inside information, but you know interviews are edited? It’s possible the cis was added by whoever edited the piece, for some reason.

I've always loved Mary Beard, so this is disappointing, but predictable.

I've now seen so many people, with little knowledge of the debate, announce publicly that they're sure there must be a way of lowering the temperature, coming to a reasonable compromise, if only everyone could be nice and listen.

It's so exasperating for those of us who have been embroiled in this debate for years. Don't you think we've tried being nice? Listening to the other side? Having a reasonable debate?

Let's not forget how the defining event that kicked all this off and got us to where we are today: the moment in 2017, when Theresa May's government launched a consultation on reform of the GRC. A group of women approached Stonewall to have a public debate about the reforms, so that they could be discussed in a civilised manner. Stonewall agreed, then pulled out. The women decided to go and have a meeting anyway.

The venue was threatened, so a new venue had to be found, and women met in Speakers' Corner to hear where the new venue would be. While the women waited, a group of three male trans activists assaulted one of the women, 60-year old Maria Maclachlan. Later, in court, one of the activists was found guilty, but the judge refused to give Maria damages because she refused to refer to her attacker as "she".

So don't tell us we need to be nice or reasonable or kind, Mary Beard. We've tried that, and look where it got us. You're six years behind the curve. You need to catch up.

I guess her field is ancient rather than recent history.

Maybe. However in this interesting 'dialogue' from 2021, Mary Beard uses 'cis' a number of times.

https://classicalstudies.org/scs-blog/kgm3/dialogue-trans-studies-and-classics-conversation-vanessa-stovall-and-mary-beard

@ArabellaScott uou have made some excellent points and expressed them well. Why don’t you write a letter to MB expressing those views and encouraging her to explore and think more on these gender questions? In fact — many of the thoughtful and well-reasoned posts on this thread might be helpful for MB to read.

@RoyalCorgi thank you for the history lesson. I was not aware of the incidents you mention.

Be more freedom fighter.

It feels very in-feminist to berate and shame a woman who has done more for feminism than most just by her very existence in her career, for not doing what you want her to do for your cause. She doesn’t owe you anything.

Is that you here to berate us Petrichor?

I've no interest in 'shaming' anyone.

I'm sure Mary Beard is robust enough to withstand people discussing her views. She's a renowned public figure. Women care about her views.

@SweetPetrichor my post was not to Mary Beard just using her phrase to women in general.

I can understand it if that’s as far as she wants to go. I saw Mary Beard did a broadcast on age-blindness in media such as in theatre productions that on the surface sounded great (Ian McKellan playing Hamlet etc) until you think about the fact the younger generation have less opportunity for building up a career with enough money to buy a house. I was sitting next to Dds that have loved her books which made it poignant.

I have also heard her speak with such enthusiasm on the younger generation. And she’s been in academic circles so long she won’t want to feel like she’s losing them (she won’t be losing lots of them, they are just quieter).

I keep reading the thread title as Mary Bearald in the Herald.

And comparing Boris in HIGNFY to Nero on stage is ridiculous. TV personalities are hardly thought of as just above prostitutes! The only comparison I can think of is that they both probably got off on it.

Ironically, I think she's brave to admit she's a coward.

I thought it was just me! 😂

I seem to remember some time around 2014/2015 or so MB signed a letter with other academics/ folk of "note" regarding censorship and was then subject to a pile on and accused of "transphobia" so maybe that has coloured her stance on the matter?

I remember this too.

It must be really annoying being a famous women who is seen to be intelligent as they will always be asked the question about their stance on trans issues and feminism. 10 years ago it was always about balancing motherhood with their career. I bet male historians aren't asked what their opinions are on this matter. Fucking annoying.