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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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9
EverySporkIsSacred · 21/09/2023 14:26

I don't think scolding people is going to get them to just put up with those behaviours either. @Froodwithatowel

But how about educating people? 😂

BCCoach · 21/09/2023 14:27

@MaryEarpsTongue apologies, I missed that.

Fenlandia · 21/09/2023 16:19

I mean, if it wasn't for the...

  • rapists in women's prisons
  • violence at women's events all over the world
  • men winning awards set up for women
  • men playing in women's sports
  • obscene behaviour by assorted trans-identified people eg that person Artemis in the american sorority house, Lia Thomas in the changing rooms, Wii Spa guy
  • men on lesbian dating apps / 'sexual racists'
  • Stonewall and others misrepresenting equality legislation
  • detransitioners and how they are treated
  • transwidows and how they are treated
  • sissy porn/degrading writers eg Chu, Lavery
  • press reporting of male suspects and criminals as 'woman'
  • heavy-handed policing of GC women with stickers or ribbons (or taking a photo of one of these heinous things!)
  • forcing crime victims to use wrong-sex pronouns in court trials
  • mad inconsistency (is gender dysphoria a debilitating illness or an identity, why do kids need to be medicalised while adults don't need to do anything to their bodies to insist on being treated as the opposite sex)
  • surgery and hormones being used on young people especially gay, autistic, looked-after kids and those with other comorbidities
  • dehumanising language used in healthcare instead of everyday language about and for women
  • institutional harassment (all the court cases from academia, publishing, law etc)

...I would have a much more positive view of trans rights!

IdleAnimations · 21/09/2023 16:49

Fenlandia · 21/09/2023 16:19

I mean, if it wasn't for the...

  • rapists in women's prisons
  • violence at women's events all over the world
  • men winning awards set up for women
  • men playing in women's sports
  • obscene behaviour by assorted trans-identified people eg that person Artemis in the american sorority house, Lia Thomas in the changing rooms, Wii Spa guy
  • men on lesbian dating apps / 'sexual racists'
  • Stonewall and others misrepresenting equality legislation
  • detransitioners and how they are treated
  • transwidows and how they are treated
  • sissy porn/degrading writers eg Chu, Lavery
  • press reporting of male suspects and criminals as 'woman'
  • heavy-handed policing of GC women with stickers or ribbons (or taking a photo of one of these heinous things!)
  • forcing crime victims to use wrong-sex pronouns in court trials
  • mad inconsistency (is gender dysphoria a debilitating illness or an identity, why do kids need to be medicalised while adults don't need to do anything to their bodies to insist on being treated as the opposite sex)
  • surgery and hormones being used on young people especially gay, autistic, looked-after kids and those with other comorbidities
  • dehumanising language used in healthcare instead of everyday language about and for women
  • institutional harassment (all the court cases from academia, publishing, law etc)

...I would have a much more positive view of trans rights!

Spot on.

I would like to add to your list if I may:

  • The entire ideology is based on regressive sexist stereotypes.
  • Lesbians and gay men being told they can’t choose a same sex partner as it’s transphobic nor can they meet in peace.
  • Some straight couples playing with their gender or engaging in sexual deviancy appropriating the gay rights movement/struggle.
NoScooby · 21/09/2023 17:38

I can't help wondering whether framing the question that way is very deliberate - it can be cited as evidence that Britain is becoming more prejudiced against transpeople, they're even more oppressed and in more danger than ever before etc

Fenlandia · 21/09/2023 17:43

Thanks, I knew I wouldn't catch everything in my stream of consciousness!

I forgot to include the institutional remembrance events and flag-waving ceremonies for the zero trans people who have been killed in the UK in recent years (Yes there is a case outstanding which no-one should prejudice by trying to 'claim' it for one side or another)

Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/09/2023 17:56

That was exactly my thought @NoScooby

FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper · 21/09/2023 18:06

Interesting that they're reporting responses purely by 'sex' though - no magical 'other'

That's a very good point. What about the poor NBs? Surely there can be no worse kind of 'prejudice' than actually claiming that people simply do not exist? Nasty prejudiced pollsters.

I can't help wondering whether framing the question that way is very deliberate - it can be cited as evidence that Britain is becoming more prejudiced against transpeople, they're even more oppressed and in more danger than ever before etc

It's very deliberately polarising. They may as well have just asked "Are you a goodie or a baddie?"

That way, they can both use the proportion of 'goodies' to (1) validate the 'groundswell of support' that their movement and methods enjoy whilst also (2) citing the sheer number of 'baddies' who are 'threatening their freedoms' - which is even more concerning and simply cannot be tolerated in a 'mainly-decent society' where [see 1].

viques · 21/09/2023 18:11

It’s not prejudice, it’s push back, because many people are fed up to the back teeth with being beaten over the head with rainbow flags and told what mean, spiteful bullies we are for stating biological fact. Can you imagine how brightly the fires would be burning if the trans lobby was transported back to the Middle Ages and given power?

No-one expects the Transquisition…..

Theeyeballsinthesky · 21/09/2023 18:14

Às hate crimes include things like “misgendering” aka known as recognising biological sex or trans widows failing to affirm their exH shiny new female identity, those figures need to be taken with a huge pinch of salt

MrGHardy · 21/09/2023 18:21

The trans lobby isn't liberal, to frame being pro trans lobby as liberal (i.e. less liberal on trans issues as this article is saying) is nonsense.

WorriedMutha · 21/09/2023 19:36

Gutted for Nancey. Hope she doesn't have to repay her performance related bonus.

TheGreatATuin · 21/09/2023 20:44

Whohashiddenthebiscuits · 21/09/2023 18:05

In this case, I think this is worth reading more than the headline which I think is misleading considering the numbers involved.

It was 84 compared to over 3000 for race related offences. Considering we know from cases and women targeted, that at least a few of those were for putting up stickers and ribbons, then I think that headline is fearmongering.

Britons more liberal on non traditional families but not trans issues
ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 21/09/2023 21:19

NoScooby · 21/09/2023 17:38

I can't help wondering whether framing the question that way is very deliberate - it can be cited as evidence that Britain is becoming more prejudiced against transpeople, they're even more oppressed and in more danger than ever before etc

My thoughts, too

ResisterRex · 21/09/2023 21:32

The prejudice question is weird. I'd almost wonder if very very liberal people might say they're prejudiced because they're not being good enough allies?! And, if you are prejudiced, are you going to say so?

But the weirdness of it reminded me of this, where there was no neutral category to put yourself in. Possibly as a result, 1/3 said they couldn't choose from the labels offered:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/attitudestootransgenderpeople.pdf

"How does the public feel about transgender people?

Respondents were asked to choose from a list of words to describe their feelings about transgender people. They could choose as many as they liked.

One-third (31%) said that they could not choose from the words on offer. Respondents who did choose were more likely to have positive than negative feelings about transgender people. Just under half of all respondents (45%) said that they felt ‘respect’, and 21% said that they felt ‘admiration’. Those who had negative feelings were most likely to say they felt ‘pity’ (16%). Relatively few said they felt ‘disgust’ (3%), ‘fear’ (2%) or ‘resentment’ (1%). Only two people in the sample said they felt ‘envy’."

Who could have come up with such categories?

"The findings of this report come from the 2019 BSA survey. Carried out by the National Centre for Social Research annually since 1983, the BSA survey is an authoritative source of data on the views of the British public."

You guessed it!

nettie434 · 21/09/2023 22:28

You can see the actual British Social Attitudes report here:

https://natcen.ac.uk/publications/bsa-40-liberalisation-attitudes

As well as being able to read the full chapter, there is also a link to the technical report on the sampling and how the data were analysed. I know some posters have questioned the use of the word prejudiced but for me the significant fact is that using this same question over the years enables the researchers to show changes in responses over time.

Where I would take issue with the report chapter is that it is written on the assumption that nothing has changed in terms of transgender people and their rights since they first asked the question in 2016. To me, the decline in support for people to change the sex recorded on their birth certificates has occurred because of worries about transgender prisoners in women's jails and crime statistics that record gender identity not sex. In the same way, why should people not change their views if in 2016 their contact with transgender people was limited to people who had undergone gender reassignment therapy and were mainly concerned with being able to marry their partner compared with witnessing people being physically threatening to people who don't share their views and seeing trans women gain advantages by competing in women's sports? The transgender population has changed, hence the changes in public perceptions.

Female gay couple with their baby.jpg

BSA 40: A liberalisation in attitudes? | National Centre for Social Research

This chapter examines the substantial liberalisation in moral attitudes that has taken place over the past four decades.

https://natcen.ac.uk/publications/bsa-40-liberalisation-attitudes

bluebeardswife7 · 21/09/2023 22:53

Well obviously, I don't want trans people to die in a grease fire, but I also think they have no place in women's spaces. 🤷‍♀️

Helleofabore · 21/09/2023 23:36

I know some posters have questioned the use of the word prejudiced but for me the significant fact is that using this same question over the years enables the researchers to show changes in responses over time.

I suspect though that over the time the understanding of prejudice has changed though. And how people perceive themselves. I get the need for consistency but when did this question first get asked? 2016?

The other questions are not about prejudice. They ask whether people agreed or disagreed with certain scenarios or actions. That is a rather different approach to take. To be consistent the question should have been more along the style of asking if transwomen are women or if trans people should use toilets of their choice. The prejudice question was never going to be a strong question. It stands out as being remarkably different to the other sections and is newer.

PorcelinaV · 22/09/2023 02:08

ResisterRex · 21/09/2023 21:32

The prejudice question is weird. I'd almost wonder if very very liberal people might say they're prejudiced because they're not being good enough allies?! And, if you are prejudiced, are you going to say so?

But the weirdness of it reminded me of this, where there was no neutral category to put yourself in. Possibly as a result, 1/3 said they couldn't choose from the labels offered:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/attitudestootransgenderpeople.pdf

"How does the public feel about transgender people?

Respondents were asked to choose from a list of words to describe their feelings about transgender people. They could choose as many as they liked.

One-third (31%) said that they could not choose from the words on offer. Respondents who did choose were more likely to have positive than negative feelings about transgender people. Just under half of all respondents (45%) said that they felt ‘respect’, and 21% said that they felt ‘admiration’. Those who had negative feelings were most likely to say they felt ‘pity’ (16%). Relatively few said they felt ‘disgust’ (3%), ‘fear’ (2%) or ‘resentment’ (1%). Only two people in the sample said they felt ‘envy’."

Who could have come up with such categories?

"The findings of this report come from the 2019 BSA survey. Carried out by the National Centre for Social Research annually since 1983, the BSA survey is an authoritative source of data on the views of the British public."

You guessed it!

"I'd almost wonder if very very liberal people might say they're prejudiced because they're not being good enough allies?! And, if you are prejudiced, are you going to say so?"

Yeah, I imagine it's only self-flagellating liberals that would confess to prejudice in the sense of being irrational.

https://youtube.com/shorts/g8GesuJmbVQ

Before you continue to YouTube

https://youtube.com/shorts/g8GesuJmbVQ?si=1-XdBZKja46Ua3QI

PorcelinaV · 22/09/2023 02:12

I know some posters have questioned the use of the word prejudiced but for me the significant fact is that using this same question over the years enables the researchers to show changes in responses over time.

But how is that useful if you don't reliably know the meaning?

Something is changing. But you aren't sure what.

PriOn1 · 22/09/2023 05:10

I think, if asked that question out of the blue, I might answer that I was prejudiced. The question would annoy me enough to do that, because it’s ludicrous.

Most people don’t believe themselves to be prejudiced, other than on the level of acknowledgement that all of us are on some level, even if subconciously, which I would assume wasn’t the intention of the question, unless they asked exactly the same question about all the other groups.

So if the only group selected out for that question were “trans people” then I would assume those writing the question were prejudiced themselves, against people like me.

I find it interesting that so many people willingly answered that they were prejudiced and would wonder whether it was due to the same kind of reaction.

On top of that, there is the vexed question of whether I am genuinely prejudiced against “trans people” because the majority of visible people representing “the trans community” are men who dress sleazily and/or regularly show aggressive male behaviour patterns and misogyny, or are troubled young women with obvious mental health issues (see Stonewall employees during court cases, for example).

Though I remind myself regularly that there is an entire subset of decent, largely invisible people who would describe themselves as trans, I also fully understand the fact that some employers would disregard applications from people with pronouns on their CV, for example. We are so regularly presented with examples of troubled, angry young people, and the co-morbidities are so common among those who obtain medical help, that I can understand an employer taking a shortcut and deciding not to employ anyone who identifies themselves as part of that demographic. That is prejudice, but of a kind where (in my opinion) the situation is so extreme that it’s entirely unsurprising.

How to unpick all that is a very difficult question indeed.

NecessaryScene · 22/09/2023 06:27

The transgender population has changed, hence the changes in public perceptions.

I recall one transwoman writing about that - the problem is now a sort "transphobia 2.0". People no longer tend have a problem with a man choosing to dress however, change his name etc.

The new problem is people being "prejudiced" by assuming on seeing any "gender-nonconforming" person that they're going to have to deal with a genderologist nutjob who's going to be kicking over display stands at the slightest perceived slight. That's the new stereotype - fragile, entitled, boundary-pushing troublemakers.

The transwoman spoke of now having to routinely "break the ice" with some sort of self-deprecating remark when they could see someone tensing up, to reassure them that they're a normal person.

BettyFilous · 22/09/2023 07:19

Helleofabore · 21/09/2023 12:16

Yes, the question about prejudice is extremely problematic.

Usually people will answer more positively as they don't think themselves as prejudiced. Or they will interpret prejudice in their own unique way. Such as they may think it is 'prejudiced' to think that 'transwomen are not women' and be taking in a hyperbolic definition of the word.

Any question worded such as that would then require a bank of questions to interrogate that perception. And for it to be asked in different ways.

Not one of two questions squeezed into a survey about 'liberalism'.

Who ever approved the design that questionnaire tool was not trained in research in any basic level, and the team who put the questionnaire tool together really should not be claiming that as any kind of achievement.

I think you’re being generous thinking its an accident of design. Being able to point to growing prejudice against trans people supports the “most marginalised” narrative and ramping up hate crime laws to police people’s speech.

I agree with others that a more nuanced question set would have drawn out the ideology vs people distinction. A lot of people have significant qualms about the ideology whilst being tolerant and accepting of individual differences in presentation.

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