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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Neil deGrasse Tyson on Triggernometry

127 replies

Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 20:44

Is anybody watching? I lasted five minutes. I can't listen to more, I might have to get a wee bit drunk first, or watch it in very small doses.

Have We Lost Trust in Science? - Neil deGrasse Tyson

Neil deGrasse Tyson is an American astrophysicist, author, and science communicator. Tyson studied at Harvard University, the University of Texas at Austin, ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0EqV6Tdi7w

OP posts:
DerekFaker · 20/09/2023 20:50

Ooh I'll watch it later. I expect it to be a frustrating watch though!

Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 20:54

Make sure you have a nice cup of tea or something stronger. I might just have watched a bad patch but KK looks quite exasparated ( I canna spell that word).

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PronounsBaby · 20/09/2023 21:04

Why will it be hard to watch? I don't know much about him but thought he was quite sensible?

Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 21:11

I haven't watched the bit about science and space exploration yet. I came in at the bit about transwomen in sport and women's short lists. He doesn't think transwomen are the problem, he thinks we need to level the playing field, ask why women aren't as represented as men and fix that. Maybe someone needs to introduce him to feminism.

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RoseslnTheHospital · 20/09/2023 21:19

Why women aren't as "represented" as men in sport? What on earth does that mean? And how does letting male people play in women's sport help to fix that anyway??

I'm saddened that NdGT can't be clear and principled about the science on this.

Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 21:26

I can't watch it all now, I'll do it tomorrow, but I was scanning the transcript and at some point he is going on about gender (around 50 min) and it is all expression, hair, clothes, make up and some people are more fluid, I need to watch it properly., but it is just waffle.

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Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 21:28

Not only in sports @RoseslnTheHospital the level the playing field was also his answer to women's short list in other fields, we just need to ensure there is a level playing field and we can do away with short lists.

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ArabeIIaScott · 20/09/2023 21:36

High points:

'We're all the same height when we're sitting down'.
'Except children who have to sit on phone books'.
'You can tell who women are because their facial hair is more likely to be tweezed'.
'hair removal is much more efficient now than it was when I was young'.

Push up bras and rouge seemed to make him very exercised, for some reason.

I don't know who this twit is, but he did a great job of making the Trig lads look wise and intelligent.

ArabeIIaScott · 20/09/2023 21:38

I also liked his wee vignette on the death of the urinal:

''you used to come in and whip it out and you'd all be peeing into a trough - we don't have those anymore''

Really, though. Patronising waffle. Embarrassing.

nauticant · 20/09/2023 21:40

I watched the first half and had a break. Now watching the second half. This is one of the most ridiculous and hilarious promotions of gender identity ideology I've ever seen.

Neil deGrasse Tyson is an utter tool of a man. I can figure out whether it's his ignorance exceeding his arrogance or the other way round.

Essential viewing.

Melroses · 20/09/2023 21:40

The moustache bit was embarrassing but not quite as bad as Layla Moran. 😳

nauticant · 20/09/2023 21:43

But Tyson rambles on in his unhinged way for maybe 30 minutes!

Surely there comes a point when the sheer quantity becomes very significant?

BezMills · 20/09/2023 21:45

He is usually excellent. I hoped as a former athlete he would get it.

Sadly not. Bit of a let down

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/09/2023 21:48

Fuck me I've just read some of the transcript and he treats gender presentation as somehow the same as sex and thinks that people who object to feminine-presenting men declaring themselves female are objecting because they can't fathom how anyone could present in a different way to other people of the same sex.

How can he be so ignorant of the actual objections to gender ideology? Is it because no one in the US is really putting across the rad fem objections to it? So he has only heard those from a religious and a conservative right wing background objecting to gender ideology?

nauticant · 20/09/2023 21:51

You wait till you get on to male people in women's sports. In his view you should let them in and then apply all kinds of complicated compensators, including having people with corresponding hormone levels compete with each other, in order to get a level playing field.

Igneococcus · 20/09/2023 21:54

"get the biologists together with the gender specialist figure it out get the hormone specialists"

Or lets just have categories based on sex.

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nauticant · 20/09/2023 21:56

Not possible because non-inclusion is unthinkable and once they're included, everything has to be configured to suit the special people.

ArabeIIaScott · 20/09/2023 22:03

RoseslnTheHospital · 20/09/2023 21:48

Fuck me I've just read some of the transcript and he treats gender presentation as somehow the same as sex and thinks that people who object to feminine-presenting men declaring themselves female are objecting because they can't fathom how anyone could present in a different way to other people of the same sex.

How can he be so ignorant of the actual objections to gender ideology? Is it because no one in the US is really putting across the rad fem objections to it? So he has only heard those from a religious and a conservative right wing background objecting to gender ideology?

I think it's more a case of wilful ignorance and deliberate misunderstanding.

nauticant · 20/09/2023 22:10

One reason why Neil deGrasse Tyson is known by the public is that he took the place of Carl Sagan in a sequel to Sagan's legendary documentary about the universe called Cosmos.

Here are some of the things Carl Sagan said and wrote:

“Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.”

“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

“It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.”

“Who is more humble? The scientist who looks at the universe with an open mind and accepts whatever the universe has to teach us, or somebody who says everything in this book must be considered the literal truth and never mind the fallibility of all the human beings involved?”

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”

“I don't want to believe. I want to know.”

“In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.”

“I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...
The dumbing down of American is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30 second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance”

CheeseChamp · 20/09/2023 22:10

He almost had me convinced. It is a difficult problem, but let's all come up with solutions instead of regressing to an old entrenched way of doing things.

Then listen to his explanation at about 1.10 onwards, dismissively explaining how it's not possible to create a world where we don't take into account skin colour, because there is culture wrapped up all in there.

Right. So skin colour means we get to separate people into camps for their own good, because they feel strongly about their culture and background and rights as a collective oppressed people.

Not women though. Their culture and background and oppression can just be waved away with... creative solutions. Your feelings don't matter in this, women, just think outside the box so we don't hurt men's feelings!

RealityFan · 20/09/2023 22:21

Wow, just wow. So, re men and women in sport, FIX THE PLAYING FIELD!
So, how do you do that? I HAVE NO FUCKING IDEA!
But, in effect, America can set it's mind to any problem and sort it.
I tell you, landing a man on the moon is kids stuff compared to trying to crack gender and make transwomen in women's sport in any way fair or equitable.
Fuck me, he's a child.

WaverleyOwl · 20/09/2023 22:25

Not one of their most erudite guests. I really was expecting more and yet, he disappointed at every turn.

nauticant · 20/09/2023 22:28

This is starting to hit Twitter where there's a mixture of disbelief and mockery. When Tyson becomes aware of that expect him to come out with a complaint about having been blindsided by bigots with an agenda.

ArabeIIaScott · 20/09/2023 22:37

'when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness...'

Eek.

nauticant · 20/09/2023 22:40

That was Carl Sagan in 1995 ArabeIIaScott.

https://bigthink.com/hard-science/a-prophetic-1995-quote-from-carl-sagan-perfectly-describes-america-of-today/

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