‘Dilation day two ….

[RudsyFarmer]

……. let's play. Where in an airport can I locate a clean, dry, private place I can lie down, take my knickers off and spread my legs?'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12535827/Transgender-ex-Labour-MSP-Heather-Herbert-disabled-toilet-Gatwick-Airport.html

They are no words are there?

I don't see this particular case as being entirely separate from rape and sexual assault, if I'm honest.

Rape and sexual assault are about performing sex acts on an unwilling participant without their consent.

Herbert's social media post has clearly sexual overtones. The reference to spreading their legs in order to dilate in a public toilet...I mean, how can it be interpreted otherwise? Women might need to, technically speaking, "spread their legs" in a medical context, for example when having a smear test or when giving birth, but we would never, ever refer to it as such. And if a medical professional ever instructed me to "spread my legs" in such a context, I would report them for professional misconduct. That's how unambiguously sexual that phrase is.

So I think it's pretty clear that there is a sexual element to this person's behaviour, which they are choosing to share with the world. That, to my mind, makes it a form of sexual assault, because it is being inflicted on others without their consent. I'd say it was comparable to sending an unsolicited dick pic to your entire contact list because the idea that it will shock and horrify them gives you a thrill.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

So many homosexual transsexuals have encountered homophobia, and I know this is anecdotal but it's true, many in their father.

No son of mine, and all that.

There's a 'phew, he's not gay after all, he's actually born in the wrong body, it's a condition', aspect.

I'd say it was comparable to sending an unsolicited dick pic to your entire contact list because the idea that it will shock and horrify them gives you a thrill.

I agree with that.

And to me, this has always been a bit of a conundrum. There is virtually no reaction that will stop these people.

Horror will often just make it more exciting. Contempt feeds the humiliation fetish. Fear is almost encouraged, likewise anger.

Hopefully it does mean that their credibility as someone with any kind of opinion about anything is so undermined that they will just disappear into the grubby morass of pervy blokes under stones everywhere.

Yep.

This is what happens when nobody pushes back on the boundaries of what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. Herbert has previously taken pics from inside women's toilets, and has galloped through various boundaries. Society has rewarded him with a candidacy for Labour seat, and as co-convenor (last time I checked) of the Scottish Greens' Rainbow group/party/whatever.

So, it escalates.

@Datun ”I genuinely believe that if you call a single man, she, you are contributing to the problem.“

I have a lot of sympathy with this, but I also strongly disagree with you. Like @Greenfishy, my workplace is such that I could not consistently use correct sex pronouns and keep my job. The only way that I can engage (by gently raising questions that I hope will make people think more carefully and perhaps ultimately change their minds) is to use gender-identity pronouns.

In my workplace, use of correct sex pronouns would be akin to using a racial slur. It would be absolutely counterproductive.

Here's a difficult question.

How do you know whether someone is fetishising it and who isn't?

I am going to tread very carefully here.

Some friends of my parents have a trans child. When I say child, this person is about 40 but it feels wrong to describe them as either a son or a daughter.

This person has now been "living as a woman" for over half their life. They apparently knew from a young age that they were trans and got the wheels in motion pretty much as soon as they turned 18 to medically and surgically transition. They are currently in a same sex relationship with another trans woman, i.e. they are both male but identify as female. I do not know whether they have a gender recognition certificate or not. They are apparently perfectly pleasant. (I have only met them a handful of times.)

This person's mother is generally very private about the whole thing, but told my mother two things. The first thing was that even 20 years ago you could easily find all the correct answers to the questions you might be asked in counselling on the internet and memorise them to make sure that the therapist diagnosed gender dysphoria. The second thing was that she (the mother) had found her then teenage child trying on her underwear, which she found very disturbing.

To me, the image of a male teenager trying on their female relatives' underwear in secret comes across as sexual. And yet, this is not, to my knowledge, someone who behaves in an overtly sexual way in public. They would, as far as I am aware, be categorised as a nice, harmless trans person. And it seems likely that, other than the psychological damage they have caused to their immediate family members, who have had a difficult journey to acceptance, they are indeed perfectly nice and harmless.

Leaving trans people to one side for a moment, you have no idea what sexual fetishes and fantasies outwardly boring people have. People you think you know well, maybe even your parents, may have colourful sex lives and weird fetishes and fantasies that would blow your mind. I know a seemingly normal man who has a foot fetish and once admitted to me when drunk that he buys women's dirty socks on eBay. I don't know what he does with them. I didn't ask. He's an absolutely lovely man who works in a respectable profession and whose social media is filled with lovely pictures of his wife and young children.

So the point is that you have no way of knowing whether being perceived as a woman is a fetish for a trans person or not. You don't have access to their inner thoughts. Maybe there are trans people for whom it is a fetish and trans people for whom it is purely dysphoria and there is no sexual aspect to it whatsoever. Maybe there is a sexual aspect to it for all of them, and the only difference is that some of them, such as Herbert, choose to flaunt that in public whereas others keep it strictly private. But the idea of using "she/her" pronouns to refer to a trans woman and not knowing whether I am inadvertently participating in something sexual now makes me deeply uncomfortable. So I try to avoid using gendered pronouns as much as possible.

But Lamplight you are honest about why you are doing it, aren't you? I mean, to yourself. I don't mean telling everyone at work why you are doing it.

Some people are very hard lined about it. Others are less so. Some people have total freedom to do what they wish. Others do not have that freedom at this time.

I agree with Margot. I now use they if I'm forced to refer to anyone who identifies as trans or NB in the third person. It is unsolicited participation in a secual fetish, or could be, otherwise and I have no way of knowing. And I refuse.

It's counter-productive because you're being compelled.

They're forcing you to perpetuate the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I completely understand. But it's the only way transactivism works. By force.

Yes, I agree @Helleofabore. I think it’s much more nuanced than it’s always wrong to use wrong-sex pronouns.
(I’d also do it out of politeness tbh, although can see why that could be considered part of the problem.)

@Datun I absolutely agree it’s forced/compelled speech. And a travesty. But I also think it’s better that I engage than I don’t.

@MargotBamborough my initial response is to say ok, anyone who is not forcing their fetish onto anyone else. No posts about spreading their legs on twitter (is the original post still up by the way? I had a look and couldn’t see it) no attempting to sleep with lesbians, no grooming of young people online etc.
Just a person trying to live their life and be true to themselves.

But you are quite right in that we never know what people are doing in their private lives or what their reasoning is for ‘transitioning’ and I completely see why some people would be uncomfortable on saying she if it was giving the person a sexual thrill. I don’t particularly care about that - for me, that’s the same as a bloke fancying me and thinking about me later when he’s at home, for example. As long as he’s not bothering me there’s nothing I can do about that and I’m not going to make myself uncomfortable thinking about it. But I appreciate that situation if they thought about it would also make some women very uncomfortable.

It’s as we have been saying - everyone has their own boundaries. I’m very much enjoying this debate though!

Ray Blanchard, the man who studied this for 30 odd years and who came up with the two types of transwoman (homosexual transsexual and agp), was of the opinion that there was a sexual element to all of it. (He was very sympathetic).

One cohort, he claims, were turned on by the idea of themselves as a woman. your straightforward fetish.

The other's internal homophobia meant they couldn't possibly be with a man, unless that man was straight because they were a woman.

It was a way of disguising the homosexuality of his feelings. I don't think anyone genuinely thinks that a man dating a transwoman is anything other than gay. But the power of self deception is profound!

I'm often reminded of Juno Dawson, who makes a big song and dance about their boyfriend being straight.

So maybe the word fetishisation isn't applicable in both cases, but a sexual motivation is - according to Ray Blanchard.

I think that as a point of principle, using "she/her" pronouns to refer to a biologically male person is always wrong. It's how we got from being kind, to Laurel Hubbard taking away a young female athlete's chance to go to the Olympics. If you get everyone to politely pretend because it's the kind thing to do, the difficulty is that it's not clear when we all need to stop pretending and start dealing in facts and reality.

But it's relatively easy for me to take that position because I don't work with any trans people, I don't socialise with any trans people, I am never in an environment where I particularly need to talk about trans people, and so it can easily be avoided. The only real danger hotspots for me are a WhatsApp group I am in for mums who gave birth in the same month as me, most of whom are American, Canadian, Australian or Kiwi, and all of whom, as far as I can tell, believe TWAW, and Mumsnet where I risk being banned if I am not careful about how I express myself. My best friend is completely opposed to me on this subject but because we don't want to lose each other's friendship over a political difference, we generally don't talk about trans stuff.

If my job or social life were on the line I would probably be forced to adopt a different approach to pronouns.

I agree!

And to me, this has always been a bit of a conundrum. There is virtually no reaction that will stop these people.

Horror will often just make it more exciting. Contempt feeds the humiliation fetish. Fear is almost encouraged, likewise anger.

The issue is the desperate male need for sexual validation - to feel that they are noticed, have an impact on others, that others react to them in some way, it doesn’t matter how, to give them that craved confirmation of existing and meaning something to others.

I have been pretty horrified in my life, when men I’ve chatted to about sexual politics, have expressed quietly resentful retorts to my complaints about rape, harassment or assault of women and girls by men. Basically they would say words to the effect of ‘women and girls are lucky someone is interested in them enough to sexually assault them - it’s better than being a bloke - hard done by and ignored, no one even cares if you exist or not’.

I’m not making it up - men unrelated and never meeting each-other have expressed the same thing. Such men have no sympathy for female victims of sexual assault- they think us women are just showing off how desirable we are, how much men ‘want’ us- rubbing their noses in it when we complain about it. It’s mind-boggling.

These men want attention. And although ‘if you ignore them they’ll stop’ works in a lot of cases, we can’t afford to ignore them when they keep upping the ante as they are doing now, trying to get our attention and get a reaction out of us, violating our boundaries further and further.

Yes.

It's the 'you're beautiful when you're angry darling' taunt.

Like that absolute prick who used to write for the Guardian and had the article about how he liked to involve a young female shop assistant in his in depth waffle and enactment of buying women's underwear, in which he actually wrote at the end how he liked to smile at them in a way that said 'I know you're not enjoying this but I am'.

It's sexual abuse. And yes, ignoring it at this point is no longer an option. But as you say, any reaction increases the happy penis, and there are always those who will excuse and excuse and insist it's all innocent and help it escalate. Russell Brand is currently providing an example.

Anyone remember that Not the Nine O Clock News sketch? The one with the social worker on a news programme? They might have had the right idea.

When I say complying with forced pronouns is part of the problem, I don't want to be misunderstood.

It is part of the problem. But in many cases, it's entirely unavoidable.

We see, everywhere, how transactivists force compliance. Jobs threatened, people doxxed, their children exposed, social outcasting, cancellation. The lot.

It's the only way to get people to do it.

And people are pushing back. Using they at work, as a compromise. It's not perfect, but it's better than the misrepresentation of using wrong sex pronouns.

I think it's more to do with those occasions, like on this site, where you are talking generally, or about somebody in the news. Training yourself out of using she for a man is liberating.

HQ are a bit woolly about when they do and don't delete. But I think they have concluded that if a man is either a criminal, a sex offender or just downright reprehensible or pervy, it's often okay to use he.

But, you know, don't hold your breath

.

It's how we got from being kind, to Laurel Hubbard taking away a young female athlete's chance to go to the Olympics.

It is indeed. Remember that McKinnon/Ivy used this as leverage to get males into female sports.

Look up clips from Trevor Noah when he interviewed 'Veronica Ivy' as they were known as by then (https://www.cc.com/video/c6demu/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-veronica-ivy-trans-athlete-rights-extended-interview this is a link to the clip but it is viewable only from USA or a VPN.)

Notice the deliberate use of language 'Ivy' calls themselves 'female' and points out that people believe they are 'female'. I have seen 'Ivy' say in the past that use of pronouns means that they believe they are 'female'. Ivy is a philosopher and serves as a consultant to the IOC and other sporting bodies.

Ivy said 'you can't say I support you, but not for sport', repeated it in fact. (They also said they put on 25 lbs of muscle.... I laughed like a hyena)

That is the cumulative effect of using pronouns.

And while I very much understand people not being able to escape it in some instance in a work environment, or social. I think people need to understand the effect they are contributing to, whether they have a choice or not. Make an informed decision, understanding the impact. And make it and understand why you have made it and the ramifications of you not using pronouns in the situation that you feel you have no options.

(I apologise by the way if any one feels anger towards this male academic and the misinformation that they just kept coming out with on this program and whoever Trevor Noah is, either knew nothing about the topic or is supportive of it. From the misinformation about olympic inclusion for males in female sports, to natural levels of female testosterone and so much other fuckwittery.)

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-greens-member-under-fire-30983579

Ivy evidencing, as others do, that you cannot be reasonable with someone with no respect for you or interest in reciprocation.

Transwoman - yep, identify how you like.

Female? A male female? Don't be so damn silly. And it makes me realise how much I and everyone else has been had all along.

I agree.

I think, if I worked with a trans person, I could probably get away without using their preferred pronouns without it being obvious.

I think the way I would handle it would be to be perfectly normal to their face, when I would address them directly as "you", and then avoid talking about them to others as much as possible, and where necessary, stick to short sentences. Generally speaking we tend to use third person pronouns in long sentences.

So rather than, "I've just been talking to Heather about next week's meeting and she thinks that we ought to..." etc, I would say, "Heather thinks that we ought to do [X] before next week's meeting" or "Heather and I were discussing [Y] and we think the best approach is to do [Z]. What do you think?"

It sounds like a lot of mental energy but once you get into the habit of doing it, it's surprisingly easy. The person in question is unlikely to notice you doing it because if they are present you just address them directly in the second person, and other people you might speak to are very unlikely to notice that you're keeping your sentences short and not using any pronouns to talk about Heather.

But there are some workplaces where I imagine it would be harder to avoid.

I think my position is, "Identify however you like, as long as you aren't including any other people in your identity who do not want to be included. Use whatever word you like to describe your identity, as long as that word is not already in use to describe another group of people that you are not part of, and your using it to describe your identity would then leave them without a word for their group which does not include you. Not every group needs to include you; indeed, there are some groups which, by definition, need to not include you if they are to have any meaning. The opposite sex is one of those groups. So you are free to identify as whatever it is you are identifying as, but you need to find a different word for it which doesn't already mean the opposite of what you actually are."

Have you come across, in real life, on social media, or in academic literature, any heterosexual effeminate men, perhaps struggling with masculine stereotypes? I’m asking because the transwomen I know don’t appear to fit the fetish or the ‘really gay’ models. I still think they have been misled into thinking that ‘living as women’ is possible and desirable; I would much prefer them to lose their need to swap one set of stereotypes for another, and just be non-conforming without the name changes and preferred pronouns that everyone else is coerced into using.