Who has most disappointed you?

[Calistano]

I'd say Russell T Davies when he had his drunken rant. I get his concern that lgbt is being fractured. But his absent concern for Women and their rights was palpable. I honestly thought he had more sense.

I remember thinking the same about GG, two decades ago. When I saw those clips of her again a few years ago I thought my god she is a seer, a prophet of where all this was going.

And such a total rejection of female socialisation, be kind and all the rest of it.

Kirsty Wark: would you ever consider saying something more ameliorating?
GG: no.

'And such a total rejection of female socialisation, be kind and all the rest of it.

Kirsty Wark: would you ever consider saying something more ameliorating?
GG: no.'

😁
I love that interview. She doesn't give one single shit about being nice or polite or sweet or amenable. I'm not sure I would be keen to work with someone who conducted themselves that way, but it is a real treat to see in an interview

Is that the interview where the presenter says something like, "A lot of people would be very upset by what you are saying" and she just goes, "I don't care! Tough shit! Try being an old woman!"

'Is that the interview where the presenter says something like, "A lot of people would be very upset by what you are saying" and she just goes, "I don't care! Tough shit! Try being an old woman'

Yes 😁

It's on YouTube, and I can't recommend it enough to anyone who hasn't had the pleasure yet

'I don't care' - I've started saying that more and more since I turned 40. Usually just to myself, but it feels really freeing

Julie Bindel also said it when being interviewed on GBn News earlier this year and she used the same tone of voice.

https://twitter.com/bindelj/status/1619665344041484289?s=21&t=CkK_J2vIj42RCzo6VvAEQQ

I think I would have cared, but since realising that they would never, under any circumstances, consider the possibility of returning any consideration I might make, I genuinely have no interest left in being accommodating.

Why does "I don't care!" feel like such a subversive thing to say?

Is it the "be kind" narrative?

Because I think even most people who try (in vain) to please both sides in an attempt to be balanced about this would flinch at "I don't care".

Look at JK Rowling for example. Most of what she says about women's rights is caveated by "of course I care about trans people" (and I have no reason to believe she is not genuine). But even those of us taking a hard line approach and saying that no male people should ever be allowed in women's spaces under any circumstances usually feel compelled to say that we feel sorry for trans people and of course they need places to pee and rape crisis support and all the rest of it. But I think some people are saying of course they care about trans people even when they don't particularly, because they've sort of internalised the idea that your point of view is only valid if you're a nice, kind, caring person who cares about all vulnerable people. (Of course it's a pointless endeavour since they still think you're an evil Nazi TERF just for believing that women deserve their own spaces even if you say you also care about trans people.)

I think that's why it's so shocking when Germaine just says "I don't care". She's so unapologetic.

And really, why should we care, or pretend to care, about people who don't care or pretend to care about us?

'Why does "I don't care!" feel like such a subversive thing to say?

Is it the "be kind" narrative?'

Yes, I think so. Girls are so thoroughly socialised to think of others, be who you are expected to be, take care of others, 'support' everybody, be a cheerleader for everyone and generally put ourselves at the bottom of our own priority lists at all times. It's so intensely liberating to a) become aware of all that conditioning and b) realise that you're not obliged to continue with that nonsense anymore.

I think that's why KJK has had such an impact. She doesn't care either.

I am not sure it's just some kind of negative socialization thing.

We are social animals, and that requires getting along at some level.

And, let's be honest, a world where no one gave to shits about anyone else would not be a very nice place to live.

I think the problem is on the other side, with people having a really entitled attitude to consideration, a lack of resilience. And there is a small population of people who are manipulators with personality disorders. They have always existed, but unfortunately they are currently being enabled by a larger group of people who don't seem to recognize what they are doing.

But there is a strain of thought across social justice disciplines, and it's been there for a while, which says that the claims of certain people don't need to be tested against logic or fact, and in fact to do so is somehow bigoted and wrong. Members of special groups get to define certain things, no matter if some in the group disagree, or it is illogical, or counterfactual.

Thanks for the Germaine Greer video tip. Just found and watched it. So good.

Jo has hinted she may not actually subscribe to TWAW…

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/10/women-avoid-transgender-debate-fear-reaction-jo-brand-germaine-greer-feminism

Also Jo brand: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6274417/Jo-Brand-says-mistake-let-children-decide-transgender.html

I don’t care about XY transsexuals. I don’t NOT care. I’m really INDIFFERENT about what they do, so long as they do not colonise female spaces and services.

So I’m self-IDing as TIFF. Transsexual Indifferent Fuming Feminist. I’m not appropriating Radical as my views should just be mainstream pragmatism.

XX transexual behaviour, when it comes to sanctioned mutilation of children and young people is a different category of Fuming and horror though.

All sounds pretty sensible and reasonable.

@Rudderneck @MMBaranova

I think the conclusion I have come to is that I don't not care about trans people. I care about their human rights in the same way that I care about everyone's human rights.

I definitely believe that trans people should be free to go about their lives without being harassed and threatened (as should everyone, including women) and that they should feel safe when using toilets and changing rooms, and that they should be free to compete in sports (the same as everyone else).

If they really feel unable to use spaces and compete in sports for their own sex, however, that is unfortunate, but it is on them to come up with a solution that doesn't involve just identifying into the spaces and sports of the opposite sex, and to campaign for it. I would gladly support a campaign for third spaces, provided that this was on the understanding that trans people use them, and do not continue to use spaces for the opposite sex.

But this is really my limit to caring about trans people. And if there are no third spaces and trans people feel strongly that they must use spaces for the opposite sex whereas women feel strongly that they want single sex spaces, I am siding with the women. Partly because I am a woman, and partly because from a purely utilitarian point of view, this represents the greater benefit for the greater number of people. The number of women who want single sex spaces is greater than the number of trans people.

Where I have decided I really do not care at all is about upsetting people by not using the language they want me to use.

I do not care if you are offended by me not using your preferred pronouns. I do not care if you are offended by me referring to your biological sex. I do not care if you are offended by me saying that humans cannot change sex and trans women are men.

Because I don't think you have a right not to be offended, because you don't care about not offending me, and because your wish not to be offended by people speaking the truth does not trump our right to speak the truth. So deal with it. Be offended. As Germaine would say, I don't care.

Ooh, I've got chills. Well said. Totally concur.

Great post @MargotBamborough . That's exactly how I feel. This is not women's problem to solve, and I'm sick of us being expected to budge up and make space and be kind and all the rest of it. Fuck that. I don't have a problem with the idea of third spaces but I wouldn't be campaigning for it because it's none of my affair, and I have better things to do with my time

I wonder why Jo Brand hasn't been torn limb from limb for those comments, like JKR and Roisin Murphy for example

Well said Margot

I don't particularly consider myself a feminist but when I look back on all this nonsense, I know that being on the side of women and girls is a no brainer for me.

I'm not sure. Twitter was mentioned, and I think he's on cycling forums.

He came out with all the cliches, but didn't know some of the facts and events that are commonly discussed on here, like removal of women-only rape crisis provision, or the WiSpa incident.

He is an intelligent man, he's no idiot. So the lack of critical thinking was pretty puzzling to me.

I wonder why Jo Brand hasn't been torn limb from limb for those comments, like JKR and Roisin Murphy for example

I recently had the misfortune to be stuck in a one sided conversation with a young man who was slagging of JKR and what it seemed to boil down to was that JKR wrote a book that lots of TQ youths felt described their lives.

Now I’ll say here I’ve never read any Potter or seen any of the films so my knowledge of it is very basic, but it sounds to me like a mistreated outsider who finds their place and becomes something great.

Like I say, I don’t know the plots this is what I’ve picked up along the way.

But that’s not an unusual plot line and would speak to so many kids who don’t fit in in some way.

He sounded angry that he had found out it wasn’t actually written with him and friends in mind.

@ApocalipstickNow I think that's it. Both JKR and Roisin have a huge fan base among people who identify as LGBTQ+. JKR wrote a story essentially about a boy who had always known he was different in some way, then found his people at wizard school and went on to save the widarding world, and Roisin is all about gender bending and defying stereotypes. So a lot of their LGBTQ+ fans felt like they should be in alignment on all that stuff and when it turned out they weren't, the punishment was swift and harsh. Whereas Jo Brand was probably never put on a pedestal by that crowd in the first place.

Ruth Coppinger has tweeted saying the ' terf' side are very quiet on Russell Brand.

I'm a bit confused and so is Ruth I think? Brand has been Twaw for years. He said he was raising his children - his first anyway - without a gender , whatever that means.

Now of course that's probably all crap and he won't be raising them period. But such is his public position. So I can't imagine GC feminists keeping shtum because he's one of them. It's like everyone is sudden playing pass the parcel with the old chap. Anyone would think he was radioactive.

Huh?

Why are gender critical feminists responsible for Russell Brand?

I haven't posted anything on social media about Russell Brand because, frankly, it's not that interesting. He's not the first celebrity with an overinflated ego to be accused of rape and sadly he won't be the last.

I'm not that interested in RB, except as an example of a sacred caste who could shrug off judgement and criticism and to whom normal standards of behaviour did not seem to apply.