JR of ScotGov's Section 35/GRR bill - next week

[ArabeIIaScott]

MBM have shared info on the 'interveners': Scottish Trans/Equality Network, Stonewall, Gendered Intelligence, and the ICDR:

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/11/who-are-the-interveners-in-the-judicial-review-of-the-uk-governments-use-of-section-35/

'Robin Moira White, Adam Wagner, Sam Fowles and Stephanie Davin are also assisting in the proceedings'

Dorthy Bain is one of the most senior lawyers on Scotland, isn’t she? One wonders how she got that job. I could waffle on without saying anything for hours to toddlers. Can I be Lord advocate?

Just bumping this for today. Is anyone listening. I do find these legal arguments quite hard to follow.

Stonewall's submission has been released to the public, at long last

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1704430758725644313

(Haven't seen a more user-friendly version yet)

I wonder if that's a leak rather than with Stonewall's permission.

Edit to say I didn't read the tweet properly that says it is released by the Court of Session

Lord Advocate, appointed by Sturgeon.

https://www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/politics/dorothy-bain-attended-40-cabinet-30111774

'The Lord Advocate has attended 40 Cabinet meetings during the ongoing police investigation into SNP finances.
Dorothy Bain's seat at the top political table has been branded "conflicting" and further calls have been made for her unique dual role to be broken up.
Scottish Labour deputy leader Jackie Baillie said: "The fact that our most senior law officer and prosecutor is not independent from the government has been an ongoing cause for concern and the need to change this has been clear.'

This morning's session (first part) from Tribunal tweets:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1704417308020523469.html

I don't think the fact lady haldene now knows you can change the sex on your drivers licence without a grc helps us. I got the impression (from live tweeting, not listening) that the argument will be:

• a single sex association is techically for those legally of that sex
• in practice membership is based on sex as on passport/drivers licence
• no one needs a grc to change their passport/drivers licence
• therefore changing the criteria for obtaining a grc doesn't impact the operation of the law on single sex associations

That might tell her what a daft situation we have got into without proper democratic debate, but I don't know of it will make her think the grr affects the operation of uk law.

Second part ongoing, current thread here:

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1704442959033176348

Susan Smith on ITV last night (forwomen Scotland)

But surely all that is irrelevant? What matters is the law and that GRC impact ‘sex’ under the equality act, so if Scotland changes who can get a GRC they are impacting reserved legislation which is beyond their competency?

Manderley may be correct in that the Scotgov argument is that a GRC actually has no material affect.

I.e. they are arguing that men are already using women's spaces etc without GRCs, on a 'self ID' basis.

This is the case. We have a man running Rape Crisis Edinburgh. We have men in women's prisons. We have men using women's toilets and changing rooms.

The argument that this is a bad thing, and that women are entitled to single sex spaces is a separate one.

The whole argument seems to be that a GRC is a meaningless piece of paper that has no effect on anything, because men can just do what they want anyway.

At least, that's my understanding.

Commentary on yesterday's session from MBM. Who actually know what they're talking about.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/09/20/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill-reflections-on-the-first-day-of-the-judicial-review-of-the-section-35-order/

But Haldane herself ruled that it does.

Useful, thank you

Haldane gave a judgement that asserted two contradictory things. I believe she was reflecting the absolute fucking guddle law as it stands.

Perhaps the only way all this can be fixed is by scrapping the GRA.

Said it before, will undoubtedly say it again. We are incredibly lucky to have MBM up here.

Yes, for the law to return to reality.

This is seriously infuriating. Women on MN and random Twitter accounts appear to have better understanding of the implications and reality of all this.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66864372
article and

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-66865088

live

Haldane is calling it an 'IT problem' again.

Ooh, they've published the Equality Network's submission, too.

https://twitter.com/BBCJamesCook/status/1704448407505445002

Is she referring to it as an IT problem or is she referring to the SG position?

From the EN submission:

'A GRC recognises the way in which a trans person is already living, it does not grant permission to them to do so. There are, as the Intervener submits in more detail below, very few occasions in which having a GRC has a practical effect.'

'in connection with the risk of abuse of the new system, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to think of any circumstance in which being in possession of a GRC would enable a person to carry out a harmful act when they could not have done so without a GRC'

'Once a GRC is obtained, the person’s birth certificate will match their lived gender; it will be impossible to know from the new birth certificate that the person had a different gender at birth.'

'If an employer, service provider or other had reason to believe that the individual had obtained a GRC (Scottish or otherwise) fraudulently, there would be no barrier to that being reported to the police. Given the concerns expressed by the respondent about the socalled lack of safeguards in respect of applications under the Bill, this 5 provides further assurance that ‘bad actors’ can be identified and investigated'

'Since the enactment of the GRA 2004 it has been the case that an individual who holds a GRC is for all purposes the acquired gender in law (section 9 GRA). The protected characteristic of ‘sex’ is defined in the Equality Act 2010 as being either a man or a woman (section 11 EqA). It has therefore been the case since before the enactment of the Equality Act 2010 that an employee holding a GRC could raise claims of sex discrimination or equal pay on the basis of their acquired gender, citing comparators of the opposite sex to their acquired gender.'

'...it would be a relatively simple matter to extend to associations with 25 or more members (Part 7 of EqA), and to single sex schools (Part 6 of EqA) the gender reassignment exception which applies in relation to single-sex services (EqA Sch.3 para28).'

She was saying that one of the objections raised by the UK gov is to do with recording data etc, and calling this an 'IT problem' .