Sunak to drop legal plans to bar transitioning in schools?

[D1nopawus]

FFS. Just as I start to think the grown ups are back in the room.

Rishi Sunak set to drop legal plans to bar transitioning in schools

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/31645f02-4ce5-11ee-98c9-759fff07db04?shareToken=c9611eafea6f3f775129767e94bdbb46

We'll all know a lot more when the identity of the Education Secretary is revealed at Sunak's reshuffle after Conference. Keegan keeps her job. She's moved on for a GC like Cates or Badenoch. Actions will speak larger than words.

The fact Sunak put Keegan at the head of Education in the first place should tell you all you need to know.

In the Spring, Gillian Keegan, Sec of State for Education said guidance would be provided to schools within a fortnight. Then it was "before the summer term". Then it was "in time for schools going back" Then she announced there would be no government guidance to schools at all.

Now Sunak has said the same. They don't give a shit about safeguarding children. Or women. It's not a priority for them. It never has been.

Undeniable. I know it's deeply unfashionable to admit you're a conservative these days, but one of the saving graces of the movement, at least prior to the current comedians, was some semblance of wishing to conserve, to provide some leadership on the issues of the day.

Right now, a combination of lack of ethics, a loss of any desire or aim to conserve, and a capitulation to the very forces that should make any true conservative very wary (over a decade of Stonewall and related lobbying ingress), means that the party is not only not fit to run the nation on pure economic and competency grounds, but is unfit on conceptual and moral grounds.

I'll take great delight in seeing them self destruct in 2024. If an 8x Tory voter is saying that, they're in the worst trouble they've ever been in my lifetime.

I'll take great delight in seeing them self destruct in 2024

Will that delight carry over if Labour make things worse for GC women?

I dread it. And I’m not an ‘anything’ when it comes to voting. Not loyal to any party, policy first, but deeply depressed by how things will end up.

People will say how, at some point, how did it get voted in. Right now women can’t meet together. If it gets worse then what? Still delight?

Its all a shitshow. Your only choice is what shade of brown.

Labour are going to walk it. If the Tories really don't want to make it competitive, they should carry on the way they've been carrying on.

Sunak will now know all about the subject, about Keegan's procrastination (imho she's proving her TRA inclinations, and will be the TRA wing of Tory party choice for party leader vying with Mordaunt, she's going down extremely well with the Millar/May contingent), and opposing Badenoch/Cates takes. They will be fully briefing him on Sex Matters advice.

So, he can't say he's uninformed on the issues, or unsure of the anger out there, or new to all of this. He's up to speed. Badenoch and Cates will have fully appraised him on the law, and Keegan's obfuscation.

Sunak has a very simple task. Starting with Keegan being moved. However her PR has been pretty interesting ("I'm doing a FUCKING ace job, everyone else sitting on their ARSES!"), she's very visible, I believe she's building to being a main contender in the race to replace Sunak post GE, and she'll fight her TRA cause tenaciously.

This will be a big part in the civil war that will engulf the Tories as recriminations for losing an 80 seat majority and the Red Wall erupts next year.

Sunak knows the game's up, but instead of being principled or gambling, he's going down at the worst technocrat ever, happy to never have been principled in so many areas.

So much for his "my two daughters" schtick, it was as fake as his pledges, and everything about him.

"At least I wasn't Liz Truss" will be his slogan on the way out of No.10.

Two things that come to mind initially

This legal stuff is huge. On that I agree with pp. none of this is fast. Look at other countries when thinking about U.K. how much more captured are they, how and who by. This is not just a U.K. issue. It embeds, spreads and stops challenge.

I’m not sure any country can fight it but if they do it will take a lot. This legal stuff is a quagmire and a bind. There are so many people invested in this who will fight it.

Including civil servants who may be on the thread who have already hitched their work wagon to Starmer and Labour

Secondly - wasn’t there just a mini reshuffle? Is the conference one definitely happening?

@RealityFan

I believe it is. Keegan has been very canny with her PR drive, all that self made businesswoman/I'm the new Thatcher, her flipping the RAAC story with her sweary outburst, and her hosting of a Women In Business event. She's right now the most visible person in the cabinet, and a massive ego.

Sunak moves her at his peril. But if she stays, we can guarantee that the poor status quo remains. And there'll be a cigarette paper's worth of difference between the main parties here.

Sorry - as this report has been identified by a Conservatie MP as inaccurate why is everyone going on and on about it.

The PM’s spokesperson has confirmed that the source for this story is incorrect. No decisions have been taken. I continue to push for guidance that will make clear that schools do not have the authority to ‘socially transition’ children.

I do agree with you RealityFan about there being little difference in the overall (very low) level of interest in women’s issues between the main Parliamentary parties.

I think that for various reasons like free speech, safeguarding children etc there’s a low level GC movement building up in all of the parties (even the Greens!) as slowly things come to light like Isla Bryson and the pink leggings and as public concern builds, but all the political parties are still as divided and full of vested interests on this as the rest of society is. So none of them have a clear consensus for GC action. Nobody’s campaigning on this for the general election so no party feels it has a mandate to act either.

So progress through Parliament will be very slow for lack of interest and respect for women. And sadly I think that means we will have to keep crowdfunding legal cases and using judicial legal routes to challenge public bodies etc to get anywhere to protect vulnerable kids and uphold women’s basic rights, rather than using Parliamentary lawmaking which is the optimal much more robust, direct, far reaching and democratic way to do it.

As a GC woman i feel like I don’t owe any politicians any favours at the next GE because they haven’t done women any favours, and so I can feel free to cast my vote on other issues that I really care about like child poverty and the climate crisis. I am expecting women to have to start again to try to influence whoever wins the next GE on key issues, including GC issues. It would be great if we can work in a cross party way with a public face to it as that is the most effective way to influence politicians.

I expect the PM's spokesperson lied to Miriam Cates to keep her sweet.

Rishi Sunak is told he CAN stop children changing their gender identity without having to change the law after the Prime Minister backed away from creating new legislation to ban 'social transitioning' in schools

• Tory backbenchers point to schools' legal obligation to recognise biological sex

Tory MPs have told Rishi Sunak he can stop schoolchildren changing their gender identity without having to pass a new law.

The Prime Minister is believed to be backing away from the idea of creating legislation that would ban so-called social transitioning in schools, to prevent pupils adopting new names, pronouns and uniforms.

But yesterday, as No 10 insisted it is still considering its options, Tory backbenchers said no such law was needed and urged Mr Sunak to take action immediately through long-awaited guidance for headteachers.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12494151/Rishi-Sunak-told-stop-children-changing-gender-identity-without-having-change-law-Prime-Minister-backed-away-creating-new-legislation-ban-social-transitioning-schools.html

So which leak is true?

Instead of speculating and endless repeating the same thing why not talk about how to lobby the Cabinet and MPs, and through them Sunak using the Sex Matters briefing

After all now is the moment whilst the Tories have a majority.

If he thinks it will be realatively easy to do he will slot it into a very busy agenda ie crumbling schools, Rwanda fiasco, and ...

Better to try now than wait for Labour to get in and at best ignore gender critical women and at worst push through self id for children.

Well that's perfect. Get a bunch of Tory MPs with zero expertise to tell the country's senior law officer she is wrong and to do something by issuing guidance which is such a basic violation of public law that you can see it from space. Great.

Cates just reserved the right to whiffle on about guidance. No actual commitment there.

Which law are you referring to?

When you say violation

Does it refer to children as well as adults?

It is very probably the law that applies I terms of how you make it.

It is a basic principle of public law that the issuing of guidance must be compatible and reflect the law as it currently is. The two must be the same. You cannot have guidance that goes further than the actual law. Otherwise the Government will be acting unlawfully, and will lose a judicial review.

If I were s trans right activist I would issue a judicial review immediately if the government issued this guidance without supporting legislation. I would expect to win.

That would be totally self defeating for clarifying the situation.

What is the legal position in terms of allowing children to do those things?

Does it exist? - ie we must allow it by law (which specifically).

Or is it more an absence of a law outlining what they can or cannot do, therefore posing a problem for extra guidance

If I were s trans right activist I would issue a judicial review immediately if the government issued this guidance without supporting legislation.

This is for children not adults though. A shame a TRA needs to intervene to undermine children’s safeguarding but they probably would anyway.

We need to split out children so adults cannot continue to force their preferences

I think that's the issue - which is you have a gap which needs to be filled by legislation to make it clear by operation of law that a child cannot transition (not inferred from other legislation as inference is not going to be sufficient for establishing human rights where the law asks for a very high level of review by judges because an individual's rights are said to be infringed) and the basis of that. Issuing guidance without this is mad.

This government has given up on doing things properly. You can see it in the incoherence of what backbenchers want. Either they really believe it or, which is more likely, they will use the issue to bolster their credentials. They don't know how to manage this and it shows. It's also a mark of how little authority Sunak has that there is this open position in the press. But it won't happen.

Issue guidance now before an election and then what? Lose the election, lose the judicial review which means that Labour have a good reason to do nothing or worse?

If the Tories pass legislation they give Labour a problem to resolve. If they issue guidance it will be withdrawn and not legally binding.

If the Tories pass legislation they give Labour a problem to resolve. If they issue guidance it will be withdrawn and not legally binding.

I agree legislation is the way to go. But I thought time was the barrier. I’d love to see it passed and am very concerned about Labour with it not being there .

And might it be difficult with ECHR? I don’t know what clashes would come up with legislation around children

I’m all for properly, but to me that means a manifesto pledge which we vote on and then takes the next five years to resolve through legislation. This has crept in in many countries only a massive effort through mandate will change course. Sadly it seems to be slim atm (devastatingly even)

Bring it on imo just give me the vote first. I don’t think it was at 2019 GE

The issue I agree is that they have run out of time to do the legislation which needs to be compatible with the ECHR.

I'd be angry if I had believed Badenoch et Cates on this. I posted here a few months back that I thought this guidance would not happen because of lack of time. They encouraged people to believe it was a quick fix. It isn't and the complexity of the issue would strongly suggest that legislation was needed to make the policy legally sound.

This issue isn't special to trans issues. It's basic public law. I would be a bit skeptical that the AG was the first to point it out. I imagine she wasn't but because of political egos they still believe it can be done risk free.

Sunak is only going to be prime minister for a few more months, possibly 16 months if he holds out to the bitter end. There is very little he can pass in the way of legislation in that time. Probably all he is thinking about at the moment is how to win the general election. He has made five key pledges which aren't going very well, so he's going to concentrate on achieving those otherwise he will look like a complete failure.

What he doesn't want to do is get embroiled in something that is both complicated and controversial, which is exactly what the schools guidance will be, whichever side it falls down on.

Most of the reporting and discussion fails to consider what "social transition" in schools actually entails.

Teachers and ^all the other children

... are required to lie to, and, about, a vulnerable child.

Can I be forced to force all the children to lie?

There were a few moments where I thought we could diverge from more captured countries but at this point I think that might not be the case (so bloody depressing btw)

The legal complexity of what has been allowed, since the GRA and other laws elsewhere has grown and cannot be undone easily. We’re part of the ECHR too which adds a layer

We messed up, imo, as societies. Now we have children compelled to use pronouns, or ending up with surgery (not here), we have females unable to meet without men for rape support

The dissatisfaction won’t go away, tg our media is not fully captured, just half of it. It’s only that that gives me hope that maybe we can come back to it if there’s a Labour go next

Good question

Can we clear this up with guidance?