If you have had an abortion in the UK (buffer zones)

[MargotBamborough]

Starting a new thread because I don't want to completely derail the Suella Braverman one.

If you have had an abortion in the UK, can you describe the practicalities of how it was managed and give your view on whether there should be buffer zones around abortion clinics?

I don't live in the UK and I have never had an abortion, but I have had a missed miscarriage and the process I went through (in France) was more or less identical to the process I would have had to go through if it had been an abortion.

I went to my gynaecologist, who does fertility treatment, antenatal care, delivers babies and performs some gynaecological surgery. She works out of an office in town where she has her own ultrasound machine, meaning that the only time she has to go to hospital is when one of her patients is giving birth or for planned surgery.

She scanned me and told me that my baby had no heartbeat, and we agreed that I would come back a week later to discuss my options. A week later I came back, had another scan and the diagnosis was confirmed. She then gave me some misoprostol from her drawer, meaning that I did not need to go to a hospital or pharmacy for the pills. I took the pills at home. I then went back 48 hours later, she scanned me again and said I had retained products. She gave me more misoprostol which I again took at home. I went back to her a final time for another scan and she confirmed that the retained products were still there, so she booked me in for a D&C at the hospital.

I went for my consultation with the anaesthetist, which was in an office near general surgery. The anaesthetist actually asked me whether I was having an abortion or whether it was a miscarriage (which I thought was rather insensitive of him).

On the day of the surgery I arrived at the hospital and was directed to general surgery, where I sat waiting with patients of both sexes. I have no idea what kind of surgery any of them were having but I assume none of them were there for the same reason as me since the others were all men, children or older women. When it was time to go I was wheeled into an operating theatre and anaesthetised. When I woke up I was in recovery with patients of both sexes. I was then moved to a twin room with an elderly woman, where I stayed for a couple of hours before being discharged.

At no point was I in a part of the hospital dedicated to performing abortions or even gynaecology (separating abortion/miscarriage patients from patients undergoing fertility treatment or antenatal care is also a smart move IMO), and nobody other than the actual medical professionals treating me knew what I was in for. I didn't have to worry about protesters because there was nowhere for them to protest.

France is a Catholic country where people still protest in large numbers against things like same sex marriage and IVF (particularly extending IVF to lesbian couples and single women). I have no doubt that some of the same people would protest outside abortion clinics if they had the opportunity to do so, and if buffer zones were in place, they would protest outside the buffer zones. But I am not aware of this happening. I am not sure whether there even are dedicated abortion clinics here.

I can't help but feel that abortion clinics will always be a target for protesters and that the smartest move is to move all abortion care to places where there is nowhere to protest. I tend to think that imposing buffer zones would simply highlight the existence and location of these clinics and give protesters a very clear place to stand, i.e. just outside the buffer zone.

So if you have had an abortion in the UK, how did it work? Were there protesters? Do you support buffer zones?

For the avoidance of doubt, even though I am sceptical about buffer zones and a proponent of free speech I do not support people's right to protest outside abortion clinics or even engage in "silent prayer" in these areas, because I see it as deliberate harassment and intimidation.

I'm sorry to hear about your miscarriage, OP.

It probably depends what type of abortion one is having- generally women will be on the gynaecological ward of a hospital.

We don't have our own gynaecologists to consult, you need the sign off of two doctors as abortion is technically still illegal in the UK.

Abortion isn’t illegal in the U.K.? But maybe what you mean is that technically we do not have an abortion on demand system in the U.K?

Marie Stopes is a well known charity that facilitates terminations. Many of these centres are just small clinics where you go for the chat, scan and then procedure (which could just be a tablet you take if pregnancy is very early on). These are the places where protesters often gather and sometime shout things at women who are walking /driving in for their appointment.

I had an abortion many years ago at an abortion provider - so that clinic was purely just doing abortions, though it was paid for by the NHS. Protesters didn't seem to be a thing then.

I don't think we need buffer zones we need people to get a fucking grip. Mind their own business. If you're upset by somebody else, a strangers abortion then you've clearly not got anything else going on in your life which is very sad.

This is kind of the point I am making.

Why isn't this stuff dealt with by the NHS in a regular medical setting? OK, not by GPs because they don't have ultrasound machines in their surgeries, although they could still deal with the initial referral. But women could have the scan in the EPU (where the other women are not going to be lovingly stroking their large bumps but most likely wrought with their own anxiety) and then the procedure itself in general surgery. Boom! Nowhere to protest.

I know exactly where abortions are carried out in the hospital where I had my D&C, but only because I had that particular surgery there. I doubt whether even the other patients waiting for their own surgery would have any idea that abortions are performed there. I still would have no clue how to protest there even if I wanted to. I don't recall there being any windows, and even if I could get near enough to the patients for them to see and hear me, either before or after their surgery, I would probably just be shouting at a 50 year old man having his gall stones removed.

The starting point in English law is that abortion is illegal.

There are then certain 'safe harbours'/defences in the law that mean a woman that has an abortion won't be considered guilty of a crime if she meets certain requirements e.g. the date thresholds and the requirement to have two doctors signing it off.

Any abortions that aren't expressly made legal are illegal, but thats because all abortion is illegal unless it falls into one of the legal buckets, rather than abortion being legal as the starting point, with certain specified circumstances being illegal.

If a woman only has sign off from a single doctor, her abortion is illegal not because the law says 'not having sign off from two doctors is illegal', but because it says 'if you want to make your abortion legal rather than the default illegal, then you need to follow these steps' and she failed to do so.

If it wasn't a crime as a default, there wouldn't need to be legal provisions to stop women being prosecuted. If everything was flipped and abortion was legal, there might be provisions that actively make abortion in certain defined circumstances illegal, but that's not the way it works currently.

@BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs For what it's worth I think it should be flipped so there is a presumption of legality and that it should be on demand at least up to 12 weeks, but my specific question here is about buffer zones.

Sorry for the derail Op, just wanted to clarify the point of law to the poster I quoted because I think default criminality is important in how the entire discussion of abortion and access for women is framed.

Thank you for sharing your story and starting the thread - it's an interesting discussion topic, but as I have no personal experience I'll bow out.

The protests are relatively recent, an import from large, well organised US groups.

That was the case 20 years ago, now women usually go to a bpas clinic who work in conjunction with the nhs. You don't normally even have to set foot in a hospital or gp surgery.

Thanks for the clear explanation.

I am in Scotland but I guess the legal situation is similar, if not exactly the same.

Thanks for clarification. The protests I've seen in Glasgow are at an NHS hospital.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/hundreds-anti-abortion-protestors-gather-29613209

'Pictures show protestors lined up across the road from the maternity unit'

And yes I think we need buffer zones to keep these arseholes away from women.

I had a surgical abortion at a bpas clinic 7 years ago on the nhs. That's where I had my consultation, scan and operation. Ok the day of the surgery there was one religious protester but she wasn't nasty or aggressive in any way and I didn't take offence at all. We are all entitled to our opinion and it's not like I was happy about what I was about to do. If my circumstances and health allowed me to have that baby I would have.

I hate arguments that attempt to trivialise something in order to refute it. It's not actual refutation. It's just contempt.

Now I wouldn't 'stand outside' an abortion clinic to make a stance or protest, but if I was walking by one, I might say a silent prayer for the babies who are having their lives ended.

Which is what people are protesting about. The lives of the unborn humans being ended. It's all hinges on whether you perceive an unborn baby to have equal worth as a living being. If you don't, your attitude towards abortion will be vastly different from someone who does. Would I light a candle or put flowers at the site of a person who was murdered or killed in an accident? Yes. That happened earlier this year, a poor young man was murdered - stabbed to death - close by a park local to me. And I went there and said a prayer. So as I see an unborn baby as a life, why wouldn't I do the same? Why would I see them as being less worthy of memorial? Just a thought.

Your logic is different if you don't believe an unborn baby is a life. Then you see it solely as a right (which it legally is) and a morally neutral choice. Then naturally you see all protestors as protesting about your choice.

I think people have a right to protest (respectfully ideally, but I don't see why in a democracy they have to) about abortions if they have the former view. People protest over many things, and the death of the unborn (if one perceives it that way) can't be any less a worthy cause to protest amongst all the human causes. I also pragmatically believe in a democracy that arguments for abortion can and should be debated.

As for people deliberately standing outside the clinic and praying, as I said, I might briefly pause or say a silent prayer whilst walking past a clinic, but I don't agree, in fact I disagree very strongly, with prayer being used as a vehicle of political protest, and rooting yourself to the spot and thus making it such is very wrong in my opinion. But straight protesting? I don't see why not? As uncomfortable as it is, explain what it is about abortion that gives it exemption from millennia of social topics to protest about? And 'it's a stranger's choice' isn't a reason not to protest. Protest about things pertaining to choices made by strangers is what protesting is often all about.

That was meant to tag in @CornishGem1975 point about protestors being concerned about a stranger's abortion.

'explain what it is about abortion that gives it exemption from millennia of social topics to protest about'

Protest at parliament. Fine. Protest at a maternity ward? Not fine.

Unless it's fine for vegetarians to stand in front of the meat counter in Sainsbury's with blood spattered placards?

Just Stop Oil protestors to chant at motorists as they fill their cars?

Or atheists to picket churches and harangue Christians to reject Jesus?

This is a good point. And I think I have to agree.

But outside a buffer zone, I'm not sure I agree protest in that scenario shouldn't be allowed, although I can certainly see that it would be distressing for some.

In 2005. No one outside protesting thank god - I was distressed enough. NHS hospital, a normal day case unit. Staff were frankly awful and made things ten times worse - apart from the surgical nurse who held my hand and asked if I was sure I wanted to go ahead as I sobbed before they put me under.

I can't begin to imagine how I would have reacted to such an awful things as a bunch of protesters screaming at me up close or from afar.

It was already going to be the worst experience of my life anyway and it absolutely ruined me for the next decade+ mentally. Whilst it was the correct decision at the time, I have never forgiven myself (stupid Catholic upbringing), and as fortune would have it I've ended up unable to have kids due to DHs infertility. I have always wished it hadn't happened - not the same as regret. It's very hard even now to write this.

I wholly agree that anyone who disagrees with abortion is free to lobby their representatives, write to papers, make their case, write articles, protest at parliament etc. Of course. We live in a democracy.

But not harass women who are vulnerable.

Pinkfootstool

Um, well, I think people would, but they know the likelihood of them being duffed up and given a huge amount of grief is 100%.

There is still shame surrounding abortion - women do it because control over some aspect of their life failed. Shame arises from the natural instinct to cover up your own vulnerability and lack of control over your life.
So women going in for an abortion are an easy target.

But how big can these buffer zones realistically be? I don't think it's always going to be possible to create a buffer zone big enough to get rid of the problem, it'll only move the protesters 100 yards down the road where they will probably still be seen by patients.

At the same time I'm reluctant to support making it illegal to protest near a clinic or a hospital, or illegal to protest against abortion, because that's a slippery slope towards banning other, legitimate protests, including potentially striking doctors and nurses protesting outside their own workplace over pay and conditions.

That's why I favour making it impossible for protesters to know where abortions are taking place by hiding them in plain sight among other, non-maternity/gynaecological services.

I'm sorry for your loss. 💐