If you have had an abortion in the UK (buffer zones)

[MargotBamborough]

Starting a new thread because I don't want to completely derail the Suella Braverman one.

If you have had an abortion in the UK, can you describe the practicalities of how it was managed and give your view on whether there should be buffer zones around abortion clinics?

I don't live in the UK and I have never had an abortion, but I have had a missed miscarriage and the process I went through (in France) was more or less identical to the process I would have had to go through if it had been an abortion.

I went to my gynaecologist, who does fertility treatment, antenatal care, delivers babies and performs some gynaecological surgery. She works out of an office in town where she has her own ultrasound machine, meaning that the only time she has to go to hospital is when one of her patients is giving birth or for planned surgery.

She scanned me and told me that my baby had no heartbeat, and we agreed that I would come back a week later to discuss my options. A week later I came back, had another scan and the diagnosis was confirmed. She then gave me some misoprostol from her drawer, meaning that I did not need to go to a hospital or pharmacy for the pills. I took the pills at home. I then went back 48 hours later, she scanned me again and said I had retained products. She gave me more misoprostol which I again took at home. I went back to her a final time for another scan and she confirmed that the retained products were still there, so she booked me in for a D&C at the hospital.

I went for my consultation with the anaesthetist, which was in an office near general surgery. The anaesthetist actually asked me whether I was having an abortion or whether it was a miscarriage (which I thought was rather insensitive of him).

On the day of the surgery I arrived at the hospital and was directed to general surgery, where I sat waiting with patients of both sexes. I have no idea what kind of surgery any of them were having but I assume none of them were there for the same reason as me since the others were all men, children or older women. When it was time to go I was wheeled into an operating theatre and anaesthetised. When I woke up I was in recovery with patients of both sexes. I was then moved to a twin room with an elderly woman, where I stayed for a couple of hours before being discharged.

At no point was I in a part of the hospital dedicated to performing abortions or even gynaecology (separating abortion/miscarriage patients from patients undergoing fertility treatment or antenatal care is also a smart move IMO), and nobody other than the actual medical professionals treating me knew what I was in for. I didn't have to worry about protesters because there was nowhere for them to protest.

France is a Catholic country where people still protest in large numbers against things like same sex marriage and IVF (particularly extending IVF to lesbian couples and single women). I have no doubt that some of the same people would protest outside abortion clinics if they had the opportunity to do so, and if buffer zones were in place, they would protest outside the buffer zones. But I am not aware of this happening. I am not sure whether there even are dedicated abortion clinics here.

I can't help but feel that abortion clinics will always be a target for protesters and that the smartest move is to move all abortion care to places where there is nowhere to protest. I tend to think that imposing buffer zones would simply highlight the existence and location of these clinics and give protesters a very clear place to stand, i.e. just outside the buffer zone.

So if you have had an abortion in the UK, how did it work? Were there protesters? Do you support buffer zones?

For the avoidance of doubt, even though I am sceptical about buffer zones and a proponent of free speech I do not support people's right to protest outside abortion clinics or even engage in "silent prayer" in these areas, because I see it as deliberate harassment and intimidation.

I think the key distinction here is that prayer is private and protest is public. Prayer is between you and whatever God you believe in, whereas protest is about making your feelings known to others, and in this situation, designed to harass and intimidate women at what, for many of them, is already an incredibly difficult time.

If you were to suddenly realise you were walking past an abortion clinic and decide to say a prayer for the souls of those unborn babies whilst walking along, nobody would be any the wiser. If you were to stop for a few minutes and say your prayer whilst looking at the building, a woman arriving for her appointment might see you and be afraid that you were about to harass and intimidate her.

Now if harassment and intimidation really isn't your objective here and you genuinely do want to say a prayer for these unborn babies (and hopefully the mothers too!) why do you need to be outside an abortion clinic to do so? If you're not going to remember to do it at any other time than when you happen to walk past an abortion clinic (unless you walk past one every day on your way to work) then I would suggest that you don't actually care all that much, and suddenly feeling the urgent need to pray when you happen to be outside a clinic where women are having abortions seems suspicious to me.

If you really do just want to pray for their souls then presumably you believe that your God will listen wherever you happen to be. Why not stick a post it note on your bathroom mirror to remind you to pray for their souls every morning and night when you are brushing your teeth?

I haven't had an abortion but I've been with someone and it was just one department of a large NHS hospital, so it would be quite difficult to protest outside as security would just remove you. Also the people attending could be there for anything until they get to the actual department so it was as anonymous as possible.

Now if harassment and intimidation really isn't your objective here and you genuinely do want to say a prayer for these unborn babies (and hopefully the mothers too!) why do you need to be outside an abortion clinic to do so? If you're not going to remember to do it at any other time than when you happen to walk past an abortion clinic (unless you walk past one every day on your way to work) then I would suggest that you don't actually care all that much, and suddenly feeling the urgent need to pray when you happen to be outside a clinic where women are having abortions seems suspicious to me.

If you really do just want to pray for their souls then presumably you believe that your God will listen wherever you happen to be. Why not stick a post it note on your bathroom mirror to remind you to pray for their souls every morning and night when you are brushing your teeth?

Oh I do pray about abortion when at home. Though not everyday. My overall view is it's primarily God's business and everyone has to make an accounting to him for decisions they make themselves. I think it wrong and will say so if asked. No interest in attempting to ban it for the reason stated above even if my private views are against it. Hence if you reread, (instead of trying to be rude and making associations with teeth brushing), you'll see I said I MIGHT stop and make a prayer. I might equally do so at home or not. But a prompt is always good. There are so many things to pray about and something being drawn to attention is good. Also the point is disingenuous. People can equally light candles for dead people or loved ones at home, but travel to places to observe vigils often in specific locations close to where the death occurred/person lived/is buried. I see no difference.

I sometimes come across one of those ghost bikes at the side of a road and might either stop there and make a little prayer for them and their family or make it point to do so when I get home or do both.

Now I agree - let me say it again in case you missed it - that prayer used to make a political point or expressly with a goal to intimidate is wrong in my opinion. But purely in terms of democratic protest (taking belief out of it) it is unreasonable in my view to attempt to prevent protest (and bring in laws that have scope to be misapplied in different situations) outside a buffer zone as horrible as it might be to one to experience. I caveat by saying as long as they are not physically preventing the person from getting to the clinic in ways that are direct.

Rang Marie Stopes and had a telephone counselling appt.
Went to Marie Stopes clinic the next week. Made eye contact and smiled at the few Bible-clutching protestors outside (only about 3 IIRC and they were fairly quiet and unassuming). Had scan, had chat, had tablets. Was sick on the way home. All passed fine over the next 8 or so hours. I was only about 6 weeks along.

This was 12 years ago tho. I could have gone to the local hospital, but the wait was longer and I wanted it dealt with asap. It was still NHS funded so I didn’t pay for it.

'purely in terms of democratic protest (taking belief out of it) it is unreasonable in my view to attempt to prevent protest (and bring in laws that have scope to be misapplied in different situations) outside a buffer zone as horrible as it might be to one to experience'

The discussions in both E&W and Scottish parliaments about buffer zones did largely consist of these issues.

Please forgive my rather facetious reference to teeth brushing; it wasn't my intention to be rude.

So, although I take your point about how you might, say, remember a loved one by praying for them at home and during your daily life but also specifically stopping to remember them in particular places, there is a key difference here, which is that the person you are praying for is dead and gone. Even if they are up in heaven looking down on you and can see you praying at their graveside, in my view this would be unlikely to distress them. Indeed, they are beyond harm's reach now.

If you are observed praying outside an abortion clinic, there is a good chance that your prayers are going to harm an actual living person who is physically present and already in a lot of pain. Even a Catholic patient who is having an abortion because she feels she has no choice, even though she believes that she is committing a terrible sin, is not likely to be reassured by the sight of you praying. It is more likely to remind her that many people agree that abortion is a sin and believe that she will go to hell for it, or it might make her decide not to go through with it. This might be a win from the point of view of the person doing the praying (an innocent baby's life saved, great job, now you can move on and not have any role in raising that child), but the woman herself, who had decided to have an abortion, may end up going through with her unwanted pregnancy and having a baby she feels unable to care for, or going back at a later date when she's further along in her pregnancy and it will be even more traumatic.

In this context I also don't see any great distinction between visibly praying and protesting. Both are likely to be, and I believe are intended to be, harmful to the woman.

The only reason I don't believe in buffer zones or banning protesters is that I don't think buffer zones would be effective and I worry about the unintended knock on consequences of banning any kind of protest.

But I do not believe that either praying or protesting outside abortion clinics is a legitimate activity. It is harassment.

What if the woman cannot proceed with the pregnancy because it would harm the mother's health to do so? What if she had been raped? What if she was terminating a foetus that would have been born with a serious additional needs that the parents would not have been able to cope with? What if she already has children and simply can't afford any more kids? What if her contraception failed and she's 16 with her whole life ahead of her? No vulnerable woman should be harassed - ever.

I had one. It was during covid though.

I called BPAS who gave me a phone call consultation with a nurse the next day. She offered me pills by post, but for other medical reasons I wanted it done surgically. I went to the BPAS clinic in my town, which is very inconspicuous. I only had to do one visit, they scanned me and did the procedure then.
There were no protesters, probably in part because of covid - it was June 2020 so right when lockdown was really strong. I know there sometimes are protesters outside the clinic now though.

The two doctors thing was so bizarre to me. I spoke to the nurse on the phone, then a nurse at the clinic did a finger prick blood test, checked blood pressure etc, then I went to the pre/post procedure room. Was called in to the surgery room where I met the surgeon, but at that point two drs had already signed it off. It's such a pointless tick box exercise. I didn't even speak to two drs. Does anyone ever get turned down..? I imagine not.
Even though it was an abortion provider, the two dr sign off law meant that I'd gone into it thinking I'd have to fight/really argue my case to two different Drs in order to have it. I didn't, I just requested it, the nurse asked if I was sure, as did the surgeon. But I didn't have to persuade anyone.

But how big can these buffer zones realistically be? I don't think it's always going to be possible to create a buffer zone big enough to get rid of the problem, it'll only move the protesters 100 yards down the road where they will probably still be seen by patients.

I guess it depends what the protesters are doing and the location of the clinic. Waving signs would still be seen, yes. But the clinic I went to was on a reasonably busy road for both pedestrians and cars a few mins walk from the town centre. If protesters were forced to move down the road a bit they could still wave their signs and make their point, but wouldn't be able to actually target individuals because there are loads of other businesses along the street that someone could be going to. The actual clinic is down a small alley so the entrance can't be seen from the pavement/road. It's the targeting of individuals I object to, not the sign waving/general protesting. I've no idea whether the occasional protesters in my town do this, but if they did moving them along the road a bit would definitely prevent it given the footfall of the street generally.

While I agree, OP, that it would be better if abortion was mixed in with normal hospital services in some ways, I don’t think it would necessarily stop protestors. Anti-choice protestors have protested outside hospitals that provide abortion services. Also, given the way abortion services have developed in this country along with the way the NHS has increased outsourcing, I think it’s unlikely many trusts would prioritize bringing services in house and into larger hospitals if they aren’t already there.

I think buffer zones are a reasonable response to the affect of protestors on vulnerable women using the facilities the protestors target. And buffer zones should be as large as necessary to ensure users are not stressed but no larger.

It’s the intimidation, the vulnerable nature of the patients, and the time sensitive nature of fertility care that makes abortion clinic protests different from most. Protesting against people buying a fur coat by using horrific images of animals outside stores selling furs is, IMO, intimidatory, but fur customers can always go to a different store or go back another day. Women accessing clinics that provide abortions often do not have the same sorts of options and will suffer harm that may not be able to be rectified if they do not receive the care they are trying to when they are trying.

I took a friend for an abortion.

The 'clinic' was a big house on a suburban St.

I wasn't allowed to be with my friend. She went for an U/S and I went to the waiting room.

The prices for drinks and snacks were in £ and Euro because there are women from other European countries who come to Britain for abortions.

Friend took tablet and then we went home, I had to take her back the following day for, I think a pessary' but it could have been another pill.

As is common in the UK the abortion happened mainly on the drive home.

I'm not sure but I think with covid you are now allowed to take the second pill at home.

I think the point the op is making is - wouldn’t it be good if abortion was normalised and provided alongside all
other healthcare procedures within a hospital, rather than being outsourced which makes it an easier target for protesters.
and the answer is in theory yes but in practice at least in the short term, unworkable and worse for
women. Bpas and Marie stopes developed because the nhs either did not want to or could not provide services. There is insufficient abortion expertise/capacity and particularly second trimester surgical offering in the nhs. Doctors aren’t trained to do it. Trusts won’t even take women for ground c medical abortion in second tri, even though that in terms of skills is something they could offer. Women needing abortion for fetal anomaly cannot access surgical care in the hospital they have received maternity care are sent to the independent sector if they don’t want medical induction.
The plus side is that when women go to bpas and msi they are coming into clinics where staff are dedicated to providing that care, compassionate and non judgmental. There sadly isn’t a guarantee of that within the nhs, although it is a vicious circle because staff in the nhs are often not exposed to abortion because it is outsourced and therefore do not develop the understanding of the care women need and why they need it. The other plus side is that organisations like bpas are also committed to changing the law to improve women’s access (eg home use of abortion medication, decriminalisation, clinical research) which probably wouldn’t have happened if abortion were in the nhs and it didn’t have a champion in the same way.
but in an ideal world , once abortion is decriminalised, fully destigmatised, it should sit alongside all other gynaecological procedures in an nhs setting. And then maybe we won’t need buffer zones so much (although Scotland and other English examples of protests outside nhs hospitals providing care show that is not a given)
in the meantime, we need buffer zones - and it is outrageous that the government still has not committed to a timetable for their introduction.

Abortion clinic protests just didn't happen in the UK until about 10 years ago..

Very depressing that this crap has been imported.

25 years ago at Marie Stopes, not a protestor to be seen.

15 years ago at Marie Stopes taking someone else and same as above.

These protestors are a new age import and have a sense of entitlement!

I had a termination (I hate the word abortion and prefer not to use it to describe my experience. I’m not sure why). It was 7 years ago. I had intractable hyperemesis gravidarum and there was no treatment left for me to have. I was in a gynaecology ward and was told I would just have to spend the rest of my pregnancy (I was about 8 weeks then) either in bed at home or in hospital. There was a risk of developing kidney failure. I had already lost a lot of weight and spent a month either on the ward or in the day unit having IV fluids and medication. DS was 4 then. I felt horrendous, missed DS and DH was struggling with running his business, caring for DS and taking me back and forth to hospital nearly an hour away. We decided (like many women with HG) that although our pregnancy was desperately wanted (I’d had severe HG with DS but it wasn’t managed properly and we’d planned the pregnancy after seeing an HG specialist) we couldn’t carry on and I knew I couldn’t spend the next 7 months living that way.
I told the consultant this on her ward round. In a bay with other women around me who had other gynae issues and just the curtains closed. The consultant (my HG specialist) told me she didn’t ‘do abortions’ so she would speak to a colleague but I would probably have to be discharged and go to a clinic. At this point I had not eaten anything more than tiny amounts for weeks and was on a drip because I couldn’t keep fluids down. I never saw her again.

I did see another Consultant who was so lovely. He understood completely and wanted to check I was sure in my decision. He signed the first part of the paperwork. I then saw another doctor, who also asked if I was sure. She signed the second part of the form and I had to sign too. They gave me a tablet to take to end the pregnancy and moved me to a side room. The next morning they gave me a pessary to start contractions and let my mum be with me through the day. After it had happened I was told we could try again in future but I would have HG again and it would be worse again. I was discharged home.

I spent most of the days running up to the termination sobbing in my hospital bed in a bay with other women and the curtains closed round me.

We had had to tell DS I was pregnant from so early on because I was in hospital so much. We told him I had ‘lost’ the baby and told family and friends the same thing. Only DH and my parents know the truth. I’m not ashamed, I know it was the right thing for our family but it was the hardest thing I have ever done and I was absolutely heartbroken.

If I had had to go past a load of protestors I don’t know what would have happened. I don’t know if it would have broken me.

In my professional life as a GP I refer patients for terminations although the signing of forms is done at the clinic which locally is part of the sexual health and family planning clinic in a building on the main hospital site but separate from it. There are other non family planning/sexual health services in that building too. I’ve never seen protestors there. I hope I was always empathetic with my patients before my own experience but since then I make sure I take the time my patients need, I talk them through it all and review them afterwards if that’s what they want.

True!

I had one termination at the age of 15 - 43 years ago - it was paid for privately with the BPAS (by my boyfriend). I had to arrive in the early hours of the morning and stay over night. It was full of Irish women who had flown over to access a termination. No such thing as protestors at that time.

I then had another in an NHS facility about 9 years later - which was a particularly unpleasant experience becaue it was clear that some of the nurses resented their role on the ward and were very hostile. It was explained that there were women in neighbouring wards who could not conceive, or who had suffered miscarriages. It was also delayed by a couple of weeks which was very emotionally difficult to deal with - feeling the instinctive urge to feed and nurture, alongside the necessity to terminate.

As a result I'd always recommend going privately, in a specialised clinic.

I've been to 2 different London clinics (maybe 4 visits in total) and had a surgical abortion in one of them and I've been in an 'abortion ward' (which I think was just a separate area of gynaecology but it's too long ago to remember) in a normal hospital up North, and I didn't see a single protestor in any of these places.

Protestors aside, having been in that hospital setting I will say that the hospital setting obviously had an air of privacy that the clinics don't have - but I never even considered the prospect of protestors before or during any of these occasions and this is the first time I've even considered the difference.

My adhd is too wild today to think about the bigger discussion you've started but hopefully this helps with understanding the UK experience.

I had an abortion in 1969, when I was 19, only two years after the Abortion Act was passed. It took place under the NHS in a cottage hospital and I was on a ward with other patients but I don't remember what they were there for. I was 13 weeks by then because it had taken me a while to find two doctors who would agree to sign the forms. No protestors then, though there was a feeling of disapproval from the staff.

Interesting that protests have increased as church attendance has decreased.

Just another way to bully women.

Is it?

I would imagine that the people who have stopped attending church are the people whose beliefs weren't so strong in the first place, and that the people praying outside abortion clinics still attend church.

Maybe. But I'm a cynical old baggage. And I'd be prepared to bet that not all of the protesters live good Christian lives.

I've had an abortion in Scotland, a few years ago so i don't know if things have changed since covid. It was at the QEUH in Glasgow which is an enormous hospital.

There were protesters lined up at one of the main entrance/exits to the hospital, which happens to be near the EPU/maternity unit but is also next to other services such as neurology, spinal injuries etc. I had to drive past the protestors to get parked to access the Outpatient appointment which was in the main maternity care block, I could see them as I walked in. I was given medication there and more to take at home (I think) and I didn't need any further visits/scans.

I've since had Outpatient appointments at the hospital for entirely different things and have still had to pass the protestors. I find it upsetting and distressing every time as it brings me back to a really awful time in my life. I am pro buffer zones.

Does that answer your question?

In the US, the abortion issue was deliberately chosen and focused on by Christian activists as a way to create a feeling of shared mission to create a community of Christians and so increase the influence of those activists.

I think it’s been less deliberate in the UK, but as the Church has lost influence and Christians have begun to see themselves as persecuted, a focus on opposition to something serves the same purpose of creating a stronger sense of community.

This is a technique that is used (both deliberately and accidentally) by many movements that have lost or see themselves losing power.