Suella Braverman statement about police behaviour and TRA police officer response

[Truthlikeness]

I was heartened to see the letter to policing leaders published by the Home Secretary yesterday, reminding them of the importance of remaining politically neutral. She included reference to the heavy handed tactics used against GC women and their failure to take action against violent TRA threats. She also described the Progress flag as 'symbolising highly contested ideologies'.

Full letter here - https://twitter.com/suellabraverman/status/1697905696145092684?s=46&t=qrlGvkcRV2VhASm_7kkOnw

And the response from a serving police officer - rather neatly illustrating the need for the letter in the first place. I don't see how that can result in anything other than dismissal.

https://twitter.com/wearefaircop/status/1698034987826614582?s=46&t=qrlGvkcRV2VhASm_7kkOnw

Tallisker
Now you're just offensive. We see you.

How am I being offensive exactly - since you're accusing me of it?
BernardBlacksMolluscs was not specific on the 'pages of nonsense'.

And if you think that what I am typing is 'nonsense' then explain why and add to the the discussion.

Just sayin

BernardBlacksMolluscs

So you're complaining about 'pages of nonsense' yet are happy to add to them with pictures of rocks!!!!!!

Felix. You are talking complete nonsense.

I posted a link to the legislation setting out the offence of harassment upthread.

The legal position is clear. The course of conduct has to be conduct which the person in question ought to know amounts to harassment of the victim, because a reasonable person would consider it to be so.

No reasonable person would consider that taking a picture of a sticker could constitute harassment of a person who happens to be observing the person taking the picture of a sticker.

Thanks for confirming the pointlessness of non hate crime incidents though. Not a crime, not an emergency, no investigation from the police is required. Someone is just offended. Why the fuckity fuck is this even a thing?

Last year I went to an exhibition about the depiction of women in art at the British Museum. At the end of the exhibition there was an interactive feature where visitors could type their comments onto an iPad and the comments would be projected onto the wall and form part of the exhibition.

Someone had written, "Trans women are women. TERFs get in the bin!"

I thought that was offensive and hateful.

If I had called the police, do you think they would have logged it as a non hate crime incident?

This is not a discussion any more.

I'm offended by the huge amount of scrolling I have to do due to repetitive and boring felixplaning

I won't involve the police just yet

😂😂

@BernardBlacksMolluscs
Fabulous photo. Great rockage. I love seascapes. Where is it?

MargotBamborough
The legal position is clear. The course of conduct has to be conduct which the person in question ought to know amounts to harassment of the victim, because a reasonable person would consider it to be so.

It depends on what the 'victim' has said to us then.

Would a reasonable person believe that if this is a series of events which is targeted to the 'victim' - as the 'victim' has stated. And is this latest sticker incident part of that on gong harassment?

That's what the investigation will need to determine and that's what the police will have to investigate.

So, if I stand outside your place of work for 3 hours - would a reasonable person think that this was harassment. Probably not, so the police should not get involved. So am I free to do this all the time, its a public place after all?

If you contact the police and state that after 2 weeks of this, you feel harassed by it - would you be happy for the police to say "...well its a public place and hes free to stand there if he wants."

The course of conduct has to be conduct which the person in question ought to know amounts to harassment of the victim
So, if the police speak to the suspect and they state that they didn't know it was harassing the person, that's enough for you to write the crime off...?

Have you ever been the victim of harassment? Have you considered that small things can add to the harassment of that person and often perpetrators of harassment will use small simple things to continue their campaign - even something simple like saying 'hello' as they walk by on the street can be devastating to a victim.

MargotBamborough
Thanks for confirming the pointlessness of non hate crime incidents though. Not a crime, not an emergency, no investigation from the police is required. Someone is just offended. Why the fuckity fuck is this even a thing?

Because if this is a pattern of behaviour from the same individual it needs to be recorded. If they are always at the centre of disturbances involving hatred towards a certain racial group - do you not think this should be recorded somewhere.

If at some point they get arrested for a racially aggravated assault - do you not think the past series of non-crime hate incidents will become relevant - when they are trying to state in their interview that there is no evidence at all that they are racist?

Or should we just ignore all such events and not record them until a crime has occurred. The past hatred incidents toward a racial group are not relevant?

Its a pity this level of detail is never considered for rape cases.

It's like 'does a chicken have a gender' level of batshittery right now. When a police officer thinks a sticker is being harassed by a woman with a camera...and a sticker called up and reported it.

This sticker seems to have more rights than actual adult human females.

AlisonDonut
We do - rape cases are taken seriously especially where we are.
Immediate response, victim safeguarded and taken to the local sexual offence suite, counselling staff summonsed, medical/forensic team summonsed, scene guards, suspect arrested early and forensically swabbed.

ABE interviews completed, witnesses,. CCTV, CPS case files with specialised CPS lawyers etc etc

These are never just put down on the 'as & when' queue

Oh look, a sealion!

I've just been to Scotland and found a little place called Dull. Apparently it's twinned with a place called Boring somewhere else. Fact.

Felix

Firstly look at the headline on this thread , it says police behaviour and the aaTRA response- that's loaded to begin with because it isn't specifically about trans rights , its about Black Lives Matter, taking the knee, dancing at protests , nothing to do solely with trans rights and yet , it fits the narrative here so it's seized upon to berate and besmirch all police , al forces , all cops .

I salute you for your ever optimistic attempts to try and patiently explain police procedures, why incidents are called incidents, what has to happen when someone picks up a phone and calls 101 to report teddy the parrot is harassed by next door sneezing but you my friend are fighting a losing battle

The stance on this board is set in stone

You will never ever change the mind of anyone here with stuff like patience and common sense because all cops are bastards , all useless, all puppets of trans activists , and it does t matter how many times you try to say you haven't had input from stonewall or mermaids , they won't listen , they are the playground equivalent of the bullies who smirk and twiddle their hair chewing their gum while the teacher attempts to establish order in class

You are wasting your time

Go and get into CID where you're dealing with easy stuff like murders , GBH and rape , where you aren't stood in the centre of a bunch of raging idiots arguing about stickers and whether it's a crime , a non rime or a none event where in reality what you'd like to do is scream " get a fucking grip " but knowing that will result in probably both sides making a complaint about you and knowing it takes up valuable time to write up your response to PSD and then taking a further week to edit out the stuff that would definitely get you sacked , well mate , just not worth it

Give me a murder any day over a bunch of people with little to no understanding but who can tell you how to do your job anyway because they know everything better than you , you stupid fool and you smell and everyone hates you anyway and your mum eats poo ner ner na ner ner

Felix , give it up . You can't win in real life , you ain't ever gonna here .

Why don't we just ignore felix and hopefully he'll go away. Don't engage.

Felix, please focus.

We are not talking about Margaret standing outside Samantha's place of work. We are talking about Margaret photographing a sticker.

In all your long experience of dealing with harassment cases, has anyone ever been convicted of harassment for undertaking completely legal behaviour in a public place which is neither directed at nor involves the alleged "victim" in any way?

Isn't the answer here actually for Samantha to mind her own fucking business?

If Samantha is following Margaret around to see if she does anything that could be reported to the police as a non hate crime incident, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that Samantha is the one harassing Margaret?

I do think you should ignore events which are not crimes and do not require police attention actually Felix, yes.

Particularly events such as photographing stickers which are neither a crime nor evidence of hatred.

If I call you up at your place of work and report both Owen Jones and Billy Bragg for committing daily non hate crime incidents towards women on Twitter, are we to assume you will give the matter your full attention? Will you go round to their houses and tell them that their behaviour, whilst completely legal, is upsetting to women and that they should knock it off if they know what's good for them?

If not, why are you not unequivocally condemning your police colleagues' heavy handed treatment of Margaret?

He's not explaining police procedures, he's fabricating a completely fictional scenario to justify why it might be reasonable or proportionate for police officers to go and question an innocent lady for photographing a sticker because some nutter has taken offence to it and thinks the police are there to avenge their hurt feelings.

And he's demonstrating that at least some of the police don't understand what harassment is.

In order for a course of behaviour to constitute harassment it needs to be directed at a victim and intended to harm them on some level. You can't accidentally harass a nosy bystander by photographing a sticker they object to.

margot

In order for a course of behaviour to constitute harassment it needs to be directed at a victim and intended to harm them on some level. You can't accidentally harass a nosy bystander by photographing a sticker they object to.

Where did you do your law degree because you need to ask for a refund

That is not the legal definition of harassment.

That is not the exact wording in the legislation but that is what it means in layman's terms. The person has to be engaging in conduct which they ought to know constitutes the harassment of a particular person because any reasonable person would think that it does.

Our sticker photographer is lacking a specific victim and has not engaged in any behaviour which a reasonable person would think was harassment.

I qualified as a solicitor 10 years ago this week, since you ask.

You can't win in real life , you ain't ever gonna here .

The reason you won't 'win' (odd choice of word) is because you cannot and will not look objectively at what the perception the public have of what the Police has become, you will not look at yourselves and find yourselves wanting in any way shape or form. That is why public confidence in the Police is nose diving, funnily enough the Police need the public just as much as the public need the Police.

If the Police as a whole took a long, hard, objective look at themselves and what they have become, accepted that was not what the public wanted or expected of them and put in place the requirements to change then they would get somewhere, they would earn back the respect of the majority of the public and yes the Police do need to earn back the respect of the public.

The irony is the cohort of people they are pandering to now would defund the Police in a heartbeat and usually have the anacronym ACAB in their social media bios. If the Police seriously think the activists they are appeasing at the moment have a modicum of respect for them they are seriously fucking deluded.

I don't think police think they have a modicum of respect at all

They don't think anyone does

There's no delusion. Most I know are tired , run into the ground with refereeing petty shit and just want to be catching the bad guys .

There is and has a been an anti agenda on this forum for a long time . I'm not wanting g to debate any more than you are . It's pointless. People have their mind made up and the title here proves that point because the actual letter is about being impartial and not showing g any sympathy or affiliation with any political standpoint, be that trans , Black Lives Matter, pride , protests , anything.

But the ONE trans police officer who decried it out of 145,000 gets the front page .

That officer needs to tread very carefully if they have any sense because there is a very very clear social media policy and maybe they're just an idiot.

But that one does not stand for the opinion of the other 145,000 rank and file police , I absolutely applaud this directive . Brilliant . Let's get back to catching criminals instead of doing the fucking Macarena.

The only anti police agenda on this thread is coming from people like me who don't think the police should be getting involved in petty shit and would like nothing more than for them to get back to catching criminals.

Criminals.

Not women who photograph stickers own feminist books.

I'm glad that some of you applaud this letter.

Any ideas how we rid the police force of the ideologues who seem to think their job is to police thought crime instead of actual crime and assuage the hurt feelings of self obsessed activists?