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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Gymnastics Australia become more trans inclusive

30 replies

Justme56 · 31/08/2023 14:25

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-12459417/Gymnastics-Australia-makes-huge-transgender-rule-change-allowing-athletes-choose-male-female-uniforms-change-rooms-based-gender-identify-as.html

Not very inclusive for girls and women.

I don’t know much about gymnastics but I enjoy watching it. However I do realise that it is one of those sports where they split activities based on sex eg women do the beam, men the rings etc (apologies if my terminology is off). How does this work when divisions are made based on GI?

Gymnastics Australia makes huge rule change for transgender athletes

The new rules are designed to make 'all members feel celebrated in who they are', according to Gymnastics Australia chief executive Alexandra Ash.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-12459417/Gymnastics-Australia-makes-huge-transgender-rule-change-allowing-athletes-choose-male-female-uniforms-change-rooms-based-gender-identify-as.html

OP posts:
Hereforsummer · 31/08/2023 14:40

That article made my head hurt, it was so wishy washy I'm not sure what the hell it actually meant! It would seem fair to allow people to pick what outfits they want to wear, as it would mean the females would not have to wear the super revealing leotards and would probably be more comfortable. The whole changing room issue is a worry though. It seemed to say that men are unkind to gender diverse people, so they can change with the women instead, which is clearly not right or fair.

horseymum · 31/08/2023 15:00

So instead of tackling male attitudes, they move some males into female changing rooms? Wear what you like but don't try to pull down women's boundaries and take team places.

Snowypeaks · 31/08/2023 15:00

Yes to the outfit choice, no to the choice of changing rooms. Absolutely typical example of forced teaming that they have yoked the two things together.

Dissidente · 31/08/2023 18:25

It looks like it's recreational gymnastics not elite or competitive.

FroodwithaKaren · 31/08/2023 18:52

Hereforsummer · 31/08/2023 14:40

That article made my head hurt, it was so wishy washy I'm not sure what the hell it actually meant! It would seem fair to allow people to pick what outfits they want to wear, as it would mean the females would not have to wear the super revealing leotards and would probably be more comfortable. The whole changing room issue is a worry though. It seemed to say that men are unkind to gender diverse people, so they can change with the women instead, which is clearly not right or fair.

Men (and some very stupid women) awarding other men access to non consenting women in a state of undress as some kind of consolation prize.

TheInterceptor · 31/08/2023 18:54

Was this man Paul Hunt a revolutionary?

Dissidente · 31/08/2023 21:22

https://www.gymnastics.org.au/guidelines-for-the-inclusion-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-people
The guidelines themselves - quite a long read.
I don’t know about Australia but in UK gym clubs don't usually have changing rooms.
Unless I'm reading it wrong it seems to be part of a response to the actual global mess that gymnastics got itself into and some TRA has labelled it and headlined it as all about trans.

Gymnastics Australia

Gymnastics Australia

https://www.gymnastics.org.au/guidelines-for-the-inclusion-of-transgender-and-gender-diverse-people

JellySaurus · 31/08/2023 21:35

How does this work with the discipline they are competing in? Men's gymnastics are often very different to women's gymnastics. If a male gymnast IDs as a woman, changing in the women's changing rooms, does he then compete on beam and asymmetric bars? Will he be doing back bends and oversplits?

Dissidente · 31/08/2023 22:34

As I read it the guidelines only cover "community" level, not higher level competition. What this means is the skills are mostly common to boys and girls - only elite gymnasts continue after 18.
Boys and girls all learn bridges and splits, which are fundamental skills.
In fun competitions, floor and vault are most common. Parallel bars or uneven parallel bars might be used, and balance beam. Boys and girls love everything. It's not separated at that level. It's usual to give kids a go on everything you have at community sessions.

NotBadConsidering · 01/09/2023 00:25

An organisation with a history of institutional child sex abuse decides to let males into women’s and girls’ spaces 😡

Dissidente · 01/09/2023 06:47

I don't think that's what's happening. As i said, this looks like part of a response to the global situation that gymnastics is in. It has been headlined trans, but the actual guidelines that I have linked are about much more.
TTBOMK Australian gymnastics is similar to the UK and there are no women's spaces - no changing rooms (kids come to the gym in their leotards, shorts, and layers as relevant.) The coaches are often male and most recreational classes are mixed.
It is usual for a class to be 24 girls and 3 or 4 boys of a wide range of abilities all training together on same equipment.

What is going on? It looks like TRAS are trying to get headlines about organisations doing things their way.
There have been large inquiries into the problems within gymnastics and top of the list is bodyshape and diet in the elite / competition streams. It's not okay for TRAS to hijack the repair process like this.

NotBadConsidering · 01/09/2023 07:32

there are no women's spaces

Of course there are. There will be toilets. If a male gymnast identifies as a girl and the club won’t let him use the girls’ toilets they will be in breach of this policy. It says in the policy:

Gymnastics Australia supports the right of people to use changing and bathroom facilities which best reflects their gender identity.

Within Gymnastics Australia and Australian Gymnastics Organisation managed facilities, people have the right to use changing and bathroom facilities which best reflects their gender identity.

Why are you trying to minimise the impact this has on women and girls? If just one girl in one female toilet in one club is negatively impacted by the presence of one male enabled by this policy, that is enough. How can an institution address its historical safeguarding failures that allowed girls to be abused while also creating a huge safeguarding loophole?

FroodwithaKaren · 01/09/2023 08:42

Gymnastics Australia supports the right of people to use changing and bathroom facilities which best reflects their gender identity.

It's a shame they don't also support the right of women to have changing and bathroom facilities they can use at all, if they have access needs requiring a male-free space. Never mind one that best reflects their sense of self in the moment.

Can you seriously not see the extreme privilege being extended to one group at the total abandonment of even basic access and provision to the other? And that this is entirely on a binary sex based basis?

It's male supremacism. Nothing more. It is more important that men get to have their gender identity reflected than women get to be able to go to the loo.

FroodwithaKaren · 01/09/2023 08:43

*'you' being those who think it's appropriate to take all facilities from women to give men their happiest and best life choice of everything.

RachaelAnn · 01/09/2023 08:50

I don't know why we pander to a 0.00001% minority and it gets so much airtime. Most people think this is ridiculous.

This is what happens in a comfortable, civilised society, we self destruct. Either that or there's something far bigger and sinister at play. I can't decide which.

Daleksatemyshed · 01/09/2023 08:57

It's always the same, instead of making the boys step up and be better it's always oh the girls will be kinder, so the girls lose out again

risefromyourgrave · 01/09/2023 09:41

Surely if a surgically unchanged man chooses to wear the female outfit there’s going to be….. certain reveals?

ApocalipstickNow · 01/09/2023 10:26

Welcome to Gender Reveal 2023

molotovcupcakes · 01/09/2023 17:51

Part of me can’t wait to view their efforts in the same spirit of the Royal ballet’s transgender dancer Sophie Rebecca, such feminine grace.

Now There's Transgender Ballet Dancers

Watch Sophie Rebecca's dance tape, who’s became the UK’s first trans ballet dancer to ever pass exams at the Royal Ballet Academy.

https://youtu.be/HoUSKJMDoXs?si=Otlju9XyXsPASI0W

WickedSerious · 01/09/2023 18:05

molotovcupcakes · 01/09/2023 17:51

Part of me can’t wait to view their efforts in the same spirit of the Royal ballet’s transgender dancer Sophie Rebecca, such feminine grace.

Like an elephant on ice skates.

Dissidente · 02/09/2023 13:36

Why are you trying to minimise the impact this has on women and girls?

I'm not minimising it. There are no changing rooms so there is no impact there.
The British Gymnastics policy on trans inclusion is a lot easier to read and it does describe the context. The Australian context might be different but not likely very different.
I can't copy paste the links to the British policy or the relevant Daily Mail article right now but they are easy to find.

JellySaurus · 02/09/2023 15:46

I'm not minimising it. There are no changing rooms so there is no impact there.

So when there are eventually changing rooms, because of different procedures or increased ages, they'll be able to say "We've had this policy for years and there have never been any problems."

Anyway, nonsense that there are no changing rooms because the children arrive in gymnastics kit. Not those arriving straight from school. Are there really no facilities for the children to use when they need to remove their clothes? Deeply concerning, if so. But, as many of us have taken our children to gymnastics, we know that is not so.

thirdfiddle · 02/09/2023 17:17

Why do you think there are no changing rooms? Even my kids doing rec gym there was a changing room. Many kids were arriving in school uniform and changing. There are frequently unaccompanied quite young girls in there, teenaged boys sharing with the girls would be really inappropriate.