No more rainbow badges for the met

[Hoardasurass]

Is sense returning to the police or is this something else?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/28/mark-rowley-police-not-allowed-support-causes-at-work/

If the police want to wear symbols they can try suffragette ribbons to send a message that they are taking mysogyny seriously.

Not ignoring you, just not understanding your question. My grandfather fought in WW2 and was extremely traumatised by it but he proudly wore the red poppy and for what it originally represented. Perhaps based on how he viewed that time I do not see any other colour poppy as having the same "value" as the red. Yes the causes they represent are valid and worthy but not the same.

The problem is displaying of a personal belief.

Yes, to many people poppies symbolise very good and worthy causes.

But many people disagree with it. There is no universal symbol of anything that isn't divisive - it's like flags. You can't hang a flag without creating a division.

The police have to be impartial - that's really not difficult to maintain.

Many of the comments about the poppy are themore emotional message the media sends out and is part of the manipulation to guilt trip people into wearing it.

If you look at the web site the red poppy to sold to raise money to support those who have been part of any UK or Commonwealth armed forces who faces problems post retirement. (You could ask why the Government doesn't take on this duty!)

In a way they appropriated the more grass roots origins of the red poppy to turn it into that was acceptable to the establishment. https://www.britishlegion.org.uk/get-involved/remembrance/about-remembrance/the-poppy

This is partly why other poppies have been created, in response to this establishisation of the symbol.

The White Poppy has a history is nearly as old as the red poppy https://www.ppu.org.uk/remembrance/white-poppy

The Purple Poppy was created / started in 2006 to remember all the animals that were / are used and sacrificied in wars between humans.

The black poppy was launched in 2010 to be a symbol that represents the contributions made by the African/Black/West Indian/Caribbean/Pacific Islands & Indigenous communities to various wars since the 16th century.

Changing the colour of the thing you are co-opting to try and change the meaning - To me the red poppies represent eveyone.

As I said in my post just before yours that is not what the red poppy was or is, and for instance the White Poppy has a history nearly as long.

If we only accept the version that the establishment sells us is it any wonder that so many get frustrated.

Just like women know the social narrative is male dominated.

In addition I think today's look at me generation have been conditioned through social media to be the centre of attenion, or they are a failure. I think that's why we have so so many competing forms of activism vying for our attention and publicity. Joining an existing organisation isn't sexy or living in the spotlight, creating a new one or subverting an existing one into a new form is. It's very me me me. Look at all the brightly coloured hair, I'm betting at least road traffic accidents are down because the fekkers are impossible to miss.
That's probably why I've not heard about Greenpeace for a long time now, but just stop testacles is all over the news. Who wants to join an organisation working hard when I can glue myself to a submarine and be on tiktock.
Bahhh Humbug!!!!

@IwantToRetire
Your post before mine expresses steps 1 & 2 perfectly.
Red is the colour of the blood that was shed not the colour of skin. A black person who shed blood shed exactly the same colour blood as everyone else for the same cause. Subverting the colour of blood and changing it to mean colour of skin. Now instead of representing everyone it's racially segregated. Bravo!!

To try and get the thread off an unintentional derail, sorry, and back to the police.
Step 1 add non crime stuff to what the police do. Mean words, not against the law, but we are going to prioritise and focus on them.
Step 2 literally paint everything police in rainbow colours.
Step 3 fuck solving actual crime, that's hard.

Ahhh yes. I agree with your Steps post in that long entrenched symbols are getting diluted before being changed to something different. Which brings this neatly back to the start. All symbols, pins and flags should no longer be worn or used by any public servant any more. What they wear in their private life is up to them (within the law) but not when working. I nearly typed duty but I don't think they consider it a public duty anymore, it's just a pay packet for a lot of them unfortunately.

Wait...what?? Why was your Steps post deleted??

Your perspective is very skewed.

It is because the establishment cooption of what was a grass roots movement has by the very fact of it being the establishment has meant that some communities felt excluded. Hence the Black Poppy.

And clearly you haven't read the information about the White Poppy which is nearly as old as the red poppy. It does not share the same values as the red poppy.

If you want to just support the establishment approved one fine, but people who want to make a statement about peace wear a white poppy because they dont support the establisment view of the world.

And clearly the Red Poppy was never about animals!

But to get back to the thread issue, even when coopted by the establishment there was never ever any suggestion that everybody should or have to wear a red poppy. And by saying that is the one symbol the police should wear they have undermined the statement saying the police should where emblems of different causes.

Red is the colour of the blood that was shed not the colour of skin.

No, the red poppy comes from the flowers that grew in Flanders despite the ravages of war.

They inspired a poem, In Flanders Fields, which in turn inspired "an American academic named Moina Michael to adopt the poppy in memory of those who had fallen in the war. She campaigned to get it adopted as an official symbol of Remembrance across the United States and worked with others who were trying to do the same in Canada, Australia, and the UK.

Also involved with those efforts was a French woman, Anna Guérin who was in the UK in 1921 where she planned to sell the poppies in London. There she met Earl Haig, founder of the Royal British Legion, who was persuaded to adopt the poppy as our emblem in the UK."

The above text is from the British Legion website.

The red comes from the colour of the natural wildflower.

The seeds of field poppies can survive for a long time in the soil's seed bank, and often germinate well in disturbed soil. The churning of the soil from high explosives and the digging of graves encouraged the flowers to grow, just as they grew when the soil was ploughed.

I was surprised, many years ago on reading 'in Flander's Field' for myself, that the last verse is literally passing the torch to the next crop of cannon fodder. It's not the unequivocal anti war poem that I had thought it to be. I believe it was written fairly early in the war.

There's a good reason to have certain symbols, in the UK really it's the Crown, that are meant to be above political issues.

Of course there are plenty of people who see that as political too. And inclusion in terms of citizenship and the law is often imperfect.

But that is, explicitly, the meaning of that level of symbolism. In countries like the US, it might be the flag, or the constitution. But intended to represent the people, the nation, as a whole, including all people, whatever their political views. It's by that ideal that we're able to make criticisms of the reality.

I think it's fair to say that only symbols that represent that total ideal should be used. SO probably, the flag, and a few others.

The poppy becomes controversial, I think, because for many it is that kind of symbol, it represents people who have served the nation. And it's not quite enough to say, well, some are against what it stands for - some people are against flags, the monarchy, even the idea of the state itself in some cases. Yest those are the institutions through which their political views are given a place in society.

So it's perhaps a more difficult case to judge than some others.

I believe it was written fairly early in the war.

Indeed, in spring 1915.

I think it's fair to say that only symbols that represent that total ideal should be used. SO probably, the flag, and a few others.

Sorry, should say, should be used by the police, or military, certain civic institutions, the NHS, etc.

The whole problem with symbols is that they can be read different ways. I'm sure most people who display the rainbow flag just want to support LGB people, and are not promoting the suppression of women's rights. But many women, for understandable reasons, are now distrustful of the flag, so the symbol has become a negative one for us, whatever the intention of the person displaying it.

The debate on this thread about the poppy perfectly illustrates this point. To some, the poppy just commemorates military deaths, to others, this original meaning has been distorted by militarism or Establishment cynicism. No one's interpretation is right or wrong, because what a symbol means to you depends on your perspective. But this is why public services like the police and NHS should avoid symbols or the promotion of political (in the broadest sense) causes.

Some of these universal symbols are already present in the uniforms of those who serve e.g. where police headwear has a metal badge those badges often have all sorts of national symbolism in their artwork. Members of the armed forces even more so in their regimental colours and uniform. Our coinage, banknotes, and stamps are often full of symbols, the banknotes particularly. The mace that sits before the speaker in the house of commons represents the monarch as being present. When Black Rod open parliament they do so as a symbol of the monarch. In a courtroom the Judge sits at the grace of the monarch often with symbols of the monarchy up on the wall behind them. I believe the prosecution in a criminal trial represents the crown.
There is an enormous amount of symbolism in almost every facet of public service, even if to most of us it is invisible. In many cases that symbolism actually conferrs the authority to do the job.

Sure, but those symbols represent the body politic and citizenship as a whole, and not a subset of it. As soon as the police start wearing a symbol that represents only some of the people they serve, they are implying that that group are particularly deserving.

Imagine a fight between an anti-war campaigner and a highly decorated army veteran. Are those two people going to feel equally confident of receiving fair treatment from a police officer wearing a poppy? The officer might in fact be totally fair, but it's not just about what you actually do, it's about the confidence that you inspire in the public.

I wasn't making an argument for other symbology, I was just highlighting how much there already is.
I agree that neutrality and treating everyone equally is the desired outcome.

People choosing additional political symbology be it the individual policeman or the chief constable for their entire force I am against.

The symbology that comes as part of the job is fine, people choosing to add their own on top I am against.

lechiffre55
The symbology that comes as part of the job is fine, people choosing to add their own on top I am against.

I agree - but that should mean everything.
Rainbow lanyards, Ukraine badges, charity pin badges, poppies, charity ribbons.... etc etc

The only thing that should be worn is your collar number.

yes, all good points.

Ah, gotcha. Yes, I agree.

I don't wear anything symbolic in work. I did pick up a rainbow lanyard prior to the pandemic but returning to work I dropped all symbols including the rainbow lanyard, the poppy and wearing the shamrock on St Patrick's day.