Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

It took female MPs from both parties to change Starmer’s stance on gender politics

33 replies

IwantToRetire · 15/08/2023 20:19

Private cross-party meetings for politicians worried about the erosion of sex-based rights encouraged the Labour leader to start speaking up at last

... many of us have missed the way this debate has also broken down party boundaries. It has brought together a group of MPs who are in no way like-minded. One of them is Baroness Jenkin. Jenkin and Conservative colleagues found themselves offering a safe space to Labour MPs who were at odds with their party’s policy on gender self-identification.

The most high-profile of these is Rosie Duffield, who has previously said she feels as though she is in an “abusive relationship” with her party – hardly something she would say lightly, given that she also escaped domestic abuse a few years ago. Even though the gender-critical Tories enjoy spending time with Duffield, she is manifestly not one of them: she disagrees vehemently with the two-child benefit limit, for instance, and doesn’t have much truck with the other views of the more strident Tory campaigners such as Miriam Cates. Yet she and other Labour women have ended up confiding in those Conservatives because they have found the atmosphere in their party so hostile for the past few years.

Many of these women regularly join cross-party meetings held in parliament for politicians worried about the erosion of sex-based rights. They were set up two years ago by the three gender-critical campaign groups in the main parties: Labour Women’s Declaration (LWD), Conservatives for Women and Liberal Voice for Women. Initially, they met monthly and over Zoom – more recently their meetings, private and under the Chatham House rule, have gone weekly. They include peers and MPs who gather to hear from experts in sex and gender, transgender people, people who have detransitioned and clinicians.

Everyone involved agrees that the gender-critical movement in politics was slow to get going, and didn’t notice the many changes to policy that ministers, public agencies and other organisations were agreeing to without much public fuss – until it almost seemed too late. In the past couple of years, activists have gone into a frenzy of organising to try to catch up and change party and government policy. As Jenkin says, it was easier in the Conservatives, if only because senior figures, including Sunak, saw the topic as a way of undermining Starmer. But the real prize was Labour party policy, because the debate is still largely happening on the left, not in the Tory party.

This organising paid off at the end of July when the Labour national policy forum met to thrash out the basic direction of the manifesto. One of the decisions it reached, supported by the leader’s office, was that the party would no longer have self-identification as its official policy in relation to Gender Reform Act reform. Many LWD activists are angry that there has been no acknowledgement of or apology to all the women in the party who have been abused for merely holding what is now Labour policy, and other than a brief comment from Wes Streeting, no apology to Duffield or other female MPs for the way they have been treated. However, all agree that they should now be in the position where to say that biological sex matters isn’t treated as heresy within the party. But it is still not a fully comfortable place to be.

This is from a longer article printed in the Observer, as unlikely the Guardian would have published it, but it still has some of the Guardian's usual weasal words. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/keir-starmer-gender-politics-labour

I wonder if it is a positive to have this more publicly known. Or will die hard partyist demand loyalty and insist women dont do anything so independent as meeting with other woman with a common cause that cuts through party lines?

(If there is an existing thread on this let me know and I'll get MNHQ to delete. I did search but nothing came up.)

It took female MPs from both parties to change Starmer’s stance on gender politics | Isabel Hardman

Private cross-party meetings for politicians worried about the erosion of sex-based rights encouraged the Labour leader to start speaking up at last

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/13/keir-starmer-gender-politics-labour

OP posts:
Aaron95 · 15/08/2023 20:35

No it didn't. It took an opinion poll. Starmer isn't doing anything he believes in. He is avoiding any possible controversial topic until after the election. He is a shoe in to be the next prime minister unless he gets embroiled in some sort of controversy.

flyingbuttress43 · 15/08/2023 21:13

Call me cynical but I don't trust a word that Starmer or Labour say on this. He's just seen the way the wind is blowing politically. Either he never believed what he said about transwomen being women, in which case he is now a hypocrite or backpeddling, or he did believe it, in which case he is a coward for not sticking to his belief.

Sorry mate, we see you.

rogdmum · 15/08/2023 21:30

I think it’s positive to have this known. I’ve spoken at two of these meetings and they’ve been invaluable for giving people a voice where we’ve struggled to be heard elsewhere. Baroness Jenkin has been amazing bringing politicians together.

Exasperatednow · 15/08/2023 21:33

flyingbuttress43 · 15/08/2023 21:13

Call me cynical but I don't trust a word that Starmer or Labour say on this. He's just seen the way the wind is blowing politically. Either he never believed what he said about transwomen being women, in which case he is now a hypocrite or backpeddling, or he did believe it, in which case he is a coward for not sticking to his belief.

Sorry mate, we see you.

And you don't think that's what the Conservatives do too?

Amethys · 15/08/2023 21:36

flyingbuttress43 · 15/08/2023 21:13

Call me cynical but I don't trust a word that Starmer or Labour say on this. He's just seen the way the wind is blowing politically. Either he never believed what he said about transwomen being women, in which case he is now a hypocrite or backpeddling, or he did believe it, in which case he is a coward for not sticking to his belief.

Sorry mate, we see you.

Totally agree @flyingbuttress43 . I’m so disappointed in Starmer. When I heard a QC was leader of the opposition I was excited and hoped it hailed a return to competent politicians instead of dodgy ex-journalists. Sadly not.

Problem with Starmer is he’s a leader who doesn’t lead. Labour should have ripped the Tories to shreds over the creep of trans fanaticism into schools prisons and hospitals, that all happened with the Tories in charge. But Starmer has no convictions, no courage, no “I believe this and I’m going to persuade you I’m right.” Just mumble mumble a woman has a penis mumble Labour will protect single sex spaces but mumble Labour will also define transwomen as being part of the female sex.”

Whatever, Starmer. You are out of time. Labour desperately needs a new leader, a proper one with actual charisma and convictions, like Tony Blair.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 15/08/2023 21:39

It's good to see women organising on a cross party basis.
Sadly I think Starmer can't be trusted over this. It's only the overwhelming bad press that every new revelation brings that's made him make a few mealy mouthed concessions.
Fortunately "Operation Let Them Speak" is going swimmingly with every day demonstrating just how dangerous and anti democratic trans extremism is to the population at large. He will - just as Sturgeon was - eventually be forced to either defend the unacceptable or to finally speak out as a responsible politician should.
We all need to work together.

Amethys · 15/08/2023 21:39

Exasperatednow · 15/08/2023 21:33

And you don't think that's what the Conservatives do too?

Yes! The Conservatives are shit too! Pointing out that Starmer has been crap on trans ideology doesn’t mean we have to be fans of the Conservatives, who are clearly clutching at straws to distract from the way they’ve beggared the country.

All of the political parties are in appalling state at the moment, partly because media scrutiny and online harassment has got so out of hand that very few good people want to do the job.

I wish JK Rowling was Prime Minister 😭

Bottal · 15/08/2023 21:42

flyingbuttress43 · 15/08/2023 21:13

Call me cynical but I don't trust a word that Starmer or Labour say on this. He's just seen the way the wind is blowing politically. Either he never believed what he said about transwomen being women, in which case he is now a hypocrite or backpeddling, or he did believe it, in which case he is a coward for not sticking to his belief.

Sorry mate, we see you.

Me too. He's like Boris that way, easily swayed by the direction of public opinion, not trustworthy at all. Flakey, a man without conviction. Power at any cost. Just like Boris. I've always voted Labour but won't be whilst he is leader.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 15/08/2023 21:47

Whatever, Starmer. You are out of time. Labour desperately needs a new leader, a proper one with actual charisma and convictions, like Tony Blair.

Tony Blair had had the ground work done by Kinnock and John Smith. He didn’t have to pull the party back from the brink of Foot’s leadership himself. And the economy was on the up, and the 90s were probably the most stable decade of the 20th century - there had been no seismic upheaval equivalent to Brexit. And Blair didn’t have to spend his first two years in opposition not really able to attack the government because of a global emergency.

I am massively disappointed in Starmer on women’s rights, and don’t trust him an inch. But I do think that he was dealt an exceptionally difficult hand as Leader of the Opposition, and has done well to pull Labour back from circling the drain.

WhereYouLeftIt · 15/08/2023 23:32

"Many LWD activists are angry that there has been no acknowledgement of or apology to all the women in the party who have been abused for merely holding what is now Labour policy, and other than a brief comment from Wes Streeting, no apology to Duffield or other female MPs for the way they have been treated."

And this is why I don't trust that there has been any change. Unacknowledged means it's all deniable. As in -

'Ooh, Anneliese's opinion piece? Why did you think that was now party policy? Surely you must know that we would make a formal announcement if that were the case, and clearly we didn't. I think you misinterpreted it.'

Right now, it's just implied, and that's simply not good enough. Until they make it totally explicit and unambiguous, I will assume that their thinking has not changed and they will implement SelfID without turning a hair. So fuck off Starmer, until you say the magic words - 'transwomen are not women'.

IwantToRetire · 16/08/2023 00:05

No it didn't. It took an opinion poll.

Really? Have never heard of any political partyconducting a survey in which women's sex based rights was included as an issue re voting intentions.

Seriously, if there has been such an opinion poll can you provide the link as would really like to know who commissioned it, what the question was and the responses.

I think most of us on FWR, despite our core topic, know that in terms of a GE 99.9% of the population do not think women being erased is top of the issues as to which party should be in power.

Look forward to the link. Thanks

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 16/08/2023 00:10

I have to admit I didn't think posting this would just mean was have the same old discussion about who is or is not trust worthy.

I just thought it was quite positive to know that women were working across party lines, and thought it good that it became known.

But was also concerned that some might be leant on by hard core party hacks, and hoped they would not face harrassment.

On the other hand maybe now it is out in the open it will be easier to get other people to see that across Parties some MPs have not kowtowed to the Stonewallisation of their particular party.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 16/08/2023 00:29

WtF????????

If you want to talk about Starmer's lack of credibility pop over to the other thread and see this report from the DM. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4867081-labour-women-declaration-responds-to-the-uk-labour-partys-pivot-on-sex-and-gender?page=3&reply=128452080

OP posts:
Ramblingnamechanger · 16/08/2023 00:34

I really warm to the idea of women doing cross party work on this…I believe it happens in the HOL more and should be encouraged . It would be good if other major issues could be handled in this way, with some sort of consensus reached about how to deal with the problems that exist. Takes longer but maybe the problems might just get solved. And three cheers for all those women tirelessly taking on the misogynists in all parties.

Igmum · 16/08/2023 06:24

So pleased with this cross party work. Now that's real leadership.

But yes, how far has Labour really moved from the TRAs? How many TRAs still have the ear of the shadow cabinet? Will LWD ever make it in from the cold?

LoobiJee · 16/08/2023 07:16

Ramblingnamechanger · 16/08/2023 00:34

I really warm to the idea of women doing cross party work on this…I believe it happens in the HOL more and should be encouraged . It would be good if other major issues could be handled in this way, with some sort of consensus reached about how to deal with the problems that exist. Takes longer but maybe the problems might just get solved. And three cheers for all those women tirelessly taking on the misogynists in all parties.

I agree. I was really struck by the fact that women in all three parties were being treated, at best, as not a priority by their parties or at worst were being subjected to active hostility, because their focus was women’s rights. And that they found that uniting as women across party boundaries was the thing that gave them strength and, eventually, influence.

I was also struck by the mention of the absolute confidentiality afforded to members of the group, in contrast to other ‘Chatham house rules’ groups. The position that lawmakers who hold lawful views and wish to discuss those lawful views have to meet in secret to protect themselves from risk is just appalling. Those politicians who created, enforced, allowed or condoned an ideological or political position which has resulted in that situation really need to take a long hard look at themselves.

LoobiJee · 16/08/2023 07:23

I also enjoyed reading about Baroness Jenkin (never heard of her).

One of them is Baroness Jenkin. The joke among Westminster women used to be that if you’d met Anne Jenkin, she’d probably already have asked you to become a Tory MP. A determined, slightly eccentric figure who often cycles around Westminster with light-up wheels on her bike, she has spent years trying to increase the number of women being elected for her party, identifying and coaching them through the candidates process. Now, though, if you meet her, she’s more likely to ask you to join her campaign for sex-based rights – and you definitely don’t need to have any Conservative beliefs at all.”

I’m not sure if that counts as grass roots activism, but that kind of laser like focus, determination, and practical approach in support of women is great to see.

DraggedKickingandScreaminginto40s · 16/08/2023 07:26

was that the party would no longer have self-identification as its official policy in relation to Gender Reform Act reform

I'll just repeat these important words
would no longer have self-identification as its official policy

official policy

I'll think on that.

Labour vows to ‘modernise, simplify and reform’ Gender Recognition Act

Party chair says since act was passed by party in 2004, there is now a ‘much better understanding of the barriers trans people face’

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/24/labour-vows-to-modernise-simplify-and-reform-gender-recognition-act

StopStartStop · 16/08/2023 07:27

No it didn't. It took an opinion poll.

This. The slow-dawning realisation that women make up half or more of the voting body and a heck of a lot of us want our rights protected against encroachment from men - any and all men - is what made him 'change his mind'.

Do not trust him. Trust Miriam Cates and Rosie Duffield.

Floisme · 16/08/2023 07:51

I think cross party working on issues where there is agreement is the only way forward for women under the current parliamentary system. As far as I'm concerned none of the mainstream parties can be trusted with women's rights. We're on our own.

EdithStourton · 16/08/2023 08:09

The cross-party work is good to see and I only wish there was more of it, rather than the constant adversarial braying.

Labour have so fucking far to come back from this one. I really feel for their female MPs.

SunnyEgg · 16/08/2023 08:11

They’re all over the shop with made up lines

Nothing has changed, there is no u turn. It’s £5 for a GP note to change to female and access single sex spaces

Sausagenbacon · 16/08/2023 08:24

IMO the public consultation on the reform of the GRA was a de facto public consultation. The sheer volume of the response took everybody by surprise.
And, sorry as I am to keep it at an adversarial level, just look how Labour treated politicians that had GC views, with absolutely no censuring from the leadership.
I heard Starmer tell an interviewer that 99.9% of women didn't have a penis, as though that was it, and we were all too stupid to think 'hang on, so .1% of women DO have a penis'.
So, no thanks Labour.

rogdmum · 16/08/2023 08:25

I was also struck by the mention of the absolute confidentiality afforded to members of the group, in contrast to other ‘Chatham house rules’ groups. The position that lawmakers who hold lawful views and wish to discuss those lawful views have to meet in secret to protect themselves from risk is just appalling. Those politicians who created, enforced, allowed or condoned an ideological or political position which has resulted in that situation really need to take a long hard look at themselves.

The Chatham House rules also protects the participants. I only spoke at the meetings I was invited to because I was promised confidentiality under Chatham House.