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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish Greens/Patrick Harvie protests the Women's Cycling Event

81 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 14/08/2023 21:15

I thought this was a piss take at first, but it's real.

Patrick Harvie and a bunch of trans activists protested the recent international event in Glasgow.

A man protesting women's sport.

Why?

Because it is open to women only.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/patrick-harvie-attends-protest-over-165816095.html

'Questions were raised about why the protest had targeted the women's elite road race and not the mens'

No shit.

Patrick Harvie attends protest over cycling championships' trans women policy

PATRICK Harvie stood in solidarity with trans women at a protest on the final day of the cycling world championships.

https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/patrick-harvie-attends-protest-over-165816095.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Waitwhat23 · 15/08/2023 10:44

I love Shaunyboy's skits. Here's some more featuring Patrick -

What do the Greens stand for?

In the Scheme -

Patrick Harvie at Christmas -

Goodviibrations · 15/08/2023 11:43

Shaunyboy is one of the few comedians even touching this mountain of satire potential. Imagine all the comedy we could have had if our comedians had been a bit braver. It's a real shame.

Rainbowshit · 15/08/2023 14:00

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 15/08/2023 08:28

Is this getting a lot of publicity in Scotland? I so, so want the Scottish Greens to be voted into oblivion at the next election along with the SNP. It worked for the LIbDems after going into coalition with the Tories, after all. I can't believe they think this is vote-winning stuff. A child of six could tell you what's unfair about letting male-bodied adults race against women, surely.

Unfortunately our awful list voting system makes it pretty much impossible to get rid of people like Patrick Harvie.

Unless green voting numbers plummeted to rock bottom or the greens decide he should not be top of the list.

TangledRoots · 15/08/2023 14:13

ArabeIIaScott · 14/08/2023 22:24

From the links you can see Dunn was a prolific activist.

Statement here from Terench Higgins Trust, 2014:

https://www.facebook.com/TerrenceHigginsTrust/posts/we-have-been-receiving-questions-about-a-story-that-appeared-on-pinknews-this-mo/10152217757942332/

And from Duncan Hothersall, presenting a defense/explanation:

https://twitter.com/dhothersall/status/1429085584996327425?lang=en

'The suggestion that because Patrick Harvie was presented with an award for LGBT activism named after Ian Dunn that that makes him a "cheerleader for paedophiles" is a grotesque smear, and requires withdrawal and apology. More evidence of the return to the 80s in LGBT reporting.'

Harvie was also pictured with several other politicians at a Pride March with John Hein.

Here is Hothersall's response:

'He wasn't "campaigning alongside Hein". He was one of several people speaking at the start of that year's Pride march which Hein helped to organise. And he has nothing to apologise for in accepting an award for activism.'

The annotations on that picture miss out Tim Hopkins - Director of The Equality Network- standing at John Hein’s other side

https://www.equality-network.org/about/who-we-are/

Scottish Greens/Patrick Harvie protests the Women's Cycling Event
SinnerBoy · 15/08/2023 15:53

I'm going to go out on a limb here, perhaps someone can correct me? I don't think that there was a truthful word in Patrick Harvie's little essay there.

OP posts:
334bu · 16/08/2023 10:29

Comments are reassuringly scathing for the most part.

Pixiedust1234 · 16/08/2023 10:39

And with regards to the science of what constitutes an unfair advantage for transgender women having gone through “male puberty”, the results are actually pretty inconclusive.

So...has he ever asked why there have been two categories in sport? Why did women get their own in the first place instead of just competing with the menfolk. Is it because people like him believe the women weren't dedicated enough or had the time due to womanly pursuits of housework and childrearing?

I think he's lost his brains behind the sofa.

Helleofabore · 16/08/2023 10:46

ArabeIIaScott · 16/08/2023 10:00

https://www.thenational.scot/sport/opinion/23720934.trans-panic-sport-hides-real-barriers-women-face/

I am fairly sure this isn't parody, although it is fucking hilarious.

The hyperbole is delicious!

AnSolas · 16/08/2023 11:07

Nice wording choice by the editor
The issue comes to life when the correct sex term etc are used

ON the final day of the UCI Cycling World Championships in Glasgow yesterday, a gathering of transgender male and female people and cisgender male and female allies lined parts of the city’s streets to draw attention to who would not be competing in the female day’s races.
One month earlier, the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) had ruled transgender women males would effectively be barred from participating in any women’s female race on the UCI calendar in perpetuity. Instead, they males would be forced to race in the men’s male category … or not at all

This decision reflects a dark trend in sporting bodies. The British Athletics Association, British Cycling, World Aquatics, World Rugby, World Athletics and the British Rowing Association have announced similar policies and restrictions on the inclusion of transgender people males In female sport.
In time, I believe this will be regarded as a bleak stain on the history of each and every one of these institutions, a discriminatory decision based not on evidence but appeasement.

After all, if transgender people males truly represented such a threat to fairness in female sport, shouldn’t there be countless examples of us males storming our way en masse to gold medals and prize podiums with little resistance, rather than just the imagined threat of such? And with regards to the science of what constitutes an unfair advantage for transgender women males having gone through “male puberty”, the results are actually pretty inconclusive.

Meta-analyses of peer-reviewed studies in this area unfair advantage for males having gone through male puberty actually show there just isn’t enough data to attempt to justify the exclusion of trans women males from competitive female sports.

For many raised in a culture as rooted in male sexism as the UK is, this will seem counterintuitive. It’s for this reason that the topic of transgender male inclusion in female sport is a reactionary’s wet dream, particularly for those who already hold a warped view on the bodies of transgender male people. Anti-trans activists will discard the evidence and instead home in on a perceived unfairness at the heart of this issue because they know it is an emotive subject that leads people to snap judgments.

Fairness in female sport is something we all want. The concept of “fair play” is often viewed as an integral part of the values that define these islands. But the nuance required in how we discuss this is entirely absent.

With all the grace of a sledgehammer, anti-trans activists have gleefully hoisted the issue of fairness in female sport into the spotlight because it is a subject that, despite having almost no bearing on the lives of most people living in Scotland, still evokes a deeply emotive reaction. And in turn, it is used to justify further encroachments on the lives of transgender male people, whether they enjoy taking part in a sport or not.

To believe transgender women males will immediately dominate in whatever professional female sport they deign to give a go is to do a great disservice to the cis female athletes who work and train so hard to excel in their field; it is a manifestation of the same everyday male sexism that makes one in eight British men males who are not professional tennis players believe they could actually win a point from tennis great Serena Williams. Though I for one would pay a reasonable ticket price to watch her destroy the fragile egos of those non-professional tennis players who would dare try.

Bizarrely, I’ve seen this same ideology stretch into the electronic non-physical sporting world too, as if women females too fragile to even handle a video game controller without being at a disadvantage. There are huge issues facing female inclusion in physical sport at a professional level – but it isn’t transgender male people who are blocking the path. The evidence shows social factors – such as chronic underfunding for female athletes and base discrimination – contribute far more significantly to performance disadvantages.

If anti-trans activists had shown any interest in addressing these problems before suddenly declaring themselves the great saviours of women's female sport, I’d have more reason to believe this was anything other than another shameless opportunity to further ostracise male trans people.

Trans male people raise questions about the world we live in, and the odd structures that govern it.

Our male existence challenges many strongly-held views of the world. The role of trans male people in female sports SHOULD be raising questions; questions about why we have structured sports in such a segregated manner – questions about funding allocations; questions about how much of perceived differences in ability are grounded in fact.

For example, wouldn’t moving to a system of weight classes, like in boxing, make more sense than the male/female segregated approach currently in play? The sporting bodies who found it easier to ban trans women males from female sport than to truly examine the foundations of their own organisations took the easy option.

And it was a decision that has not been overlooked by Glasgow’s queer community. While activists gathered, Leap Sports Scotland hosted a solidarity cycle in response to the UCI’s policy which they describe as “disproportionate, discriminatory and lacking in evidence”.

In a statement from the Glasgow Trans Rally group, organisers noted that: “These bans are not relevant only to male athletes or male sport enthusiasts. These policies are symptomatic of a wider hostility towards male trans people and their systematic exclusion globally and in the UK.”

They concluded: “Allowing these policies to pass without challenge will embolden others to push their anti-trans rhetoric.”

It is to the detriment of all female athletes that a moral panic has been used to conceal the real barriers women females face in accessing female sport.

Froodwithatowel · 16/08/2023 11:34

By that article, 'anti-trans' really does now mean nothing more than refusing to unconditionally enact the chosen fantasy of whatever a male person tells you.

No. Transwomen are male people identifying, and they are not women. Not engaging any further beyond that point. Call that whatever names you feel you need to, but you'll be waiting a long time for me to care.

Just seen this morning the huge kick off by the righteous about the Bradley Cooper film where an actor playing a Jewish role used a prosthetic nose, and it's equivalent to 'black face'. Performatively enacting the role of something you are in fact not is seen as totally inappropriate. But if it's a male person enacting a woman with prosthetic parts?

That's fine. It's so fine that if I state the reality of what the male person is and will remain regardless of how they dress or what additions they make to their male body, I will be punished.

SinnerBoy · 16/08/2023 16:09

"Steph" Paton? AKA Kevin?

There's barely a word of truth in his stupid polemic. He claims that there's no evidence to show that men claiming to be women and competing in women's events are winning, at the expense of winning.

With such a reality inversion, nothing he's written need be taken at face value; indeed, the opposite may be assumed.

Froodwithatowel · 16/08/2023 18:41

This is the thing though: once you've accepted that the person talking to you believes that feelings create reality and not facts; that they can identify their personal reality and require you to enact it as if it's the truth (or else/you're mean) - why would you expect them to be able to engage with you using facts and reality in anything else?

This is why I cannot vote for any of the left parties. When idiot MPs say on camera 'there is no conflict of rights' and require that people just accept their identified reality - and plan to go into power and use that power to further their own personal objective reality while insisting you pretend it's true - that person shouldn't be running a bloody paper round, never mind a country.

Riapia · 16/08/2023 19:06

Don’t stop him protesting.
Like the ‘ just stop oil’ twats every time he appears in public he makes himself look even more ridiculous.
He’s making himself into a laughing stock.

SinnerBoy · 21/08/2023 04:06

I'd prefer it if he made himself into chicken stock.

Crankywiddershins · 21/08/2023 07:18

AnSolas · 16/08/2023 11:07

Nice wording choice by the editor
The issue comes to life when the correct sex term etc are used

ON the final day of the UCI Cycling World Championships in Glasgow yesterday, a gathering of transgender male and female people and cisgender male and female allies lined parts of the city’s streets to draw attention to who would not be competing in the female day’s races.
One month earlier, the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) had ruled transgender women males would effectively be barred from participating in any women’s female race on the UCI calendar in perpetuity. Instead, they males would be forced to race in the men’s male category … or not at all

This decision reflects a dark trend in sporting bodies. The British Athletics Association, British Cycling, World Aquatics, World Rugby, World Athletics and the British Rowing Association have announced similar policies and restrictions on the inclusion of transgender people males In female sport.
In time, I believe this will be regarded as a bleak stain on the history of each and every one of these institutions, a discriminatory decision based not on evidence but appeasement.

After all, if transgender people males truly represented such a threat to fairness in female sport, shouldn’t there be countless examples of us males storming our way en masse to gold medals and prize podiums with little resistance, rather than just the imagined threat of such? And with regards to the science of what constitutes an unfair advantage for transgender women males having gone through “male puberty”, the results are actually pretty inconclusive.

Meta-analyses of peer-reviewed studies in this area unfair advantage for males having gone through male puberty actually show there just isn’t enough data to attempt to justify the exclusion of trans women males from competitive female sports.

For many raised in a culture as rooted in male sexism as the UK is, this will seem counterintuitive. It’s for this reason that the topic of transgender male inclusion in female sport is a reactionary’s wet dream, particularly for those who already hold a warped view on the bodies of transgender male people. Anti-trans activists will discard the evidence and instead home in on a perceived unfairness at the heart of this issue because they know it is an emotive subject that leads people to snap judgments.

Fairness in female sport is something we all want. The concept of “fair play” is often viewed as an integral part of the values that define these islands. But the nuance required in how we discuss this is entirely absent.

With all the grace of a sledgehammer, anti-trans activists have gleefully hoisted the issue of fairness in female sport into the spotlight because it is a subject that, despite having almost no bearing on the lives of most people living in Scotland, still evokes a deeply emotive reaction. And in turn, it is used to justify further encroachments on the lives of transgender male people, whether they enjoy taking part in a sport or not.

To believe transgender women males will immediately dominate in whatever professional female sport they deign to give a go is to do a great disservice to the cis female athletes who work and train so hard to excel in their field; it is a manifestation of the same everyday male sexism that makes one in eight British men males who are not professional tennis players believe they could actually win a point from tennis great Serena Williams. Though I for one would pay a reasonable ticket price to watch her destroy the fragile egos of those non-professional tennis players who would dare try.

Bizarrely, I’ve seen this same ideology stretch into the electronic non-physical sporting world too, as if women females too fragile to even handle a video game controller without being at a disadvantage. There are huge issues facing female inclusion in physical sport at a professional level – but it isn’t transgender male people who are blocking the path. The evidence shows social factors – such as chronic underfunding for female athletes and base discrimination – contribute far more significantly to performance disadvantages.

If anti-trans activists had shown any interest in addressing these problems before suddenly declaring themselves the great saviours of women's female sport, I’d have more reason to believe this was anything other than another shameless opportunity to further ostracise male trans people.

Trans male people raise questions about the world we live in, and the odd structures that govern it.

Our male existence challenges many strongly-held views of the world. The role of trans male people in female sports SHOULD be raising questions; questions about why we have structured sports in such a segregated manner – questions about funding allocations; questions about how much of perceived differences in ability are grounded in fact.

For example, wouldn’t moving to a system of weight classes, like in boxing, make more sense than the male/female segregated approach currently in play? The sporting bodies who found it easier to ban trans women males from female sport than to truly examine the foundations of their own organisations took the easy option.

And it was a decision that has not been overlooked by Glasgow’s queer community. While activists gathered, Leap Sports Scotland hosted a solidarity cycle in response to the UCI’s policy which they describe as “disproportionate, discriminatory and lacking in evidence”.

In a statement from the Glasgow Trans Rally group, organisers noted that: “These bans are not relevant only to male athletes or male sport enthusiasts. These policies are symptomatic of a wider hostility towards male trans people and their systematic exclusion globally and in the UK.”

They concluded: “Allowing these policies to pass without challenge will embolden others to push their anti-trans rhetoric.”

It is to the detriment of all female athletes that a moral panic has been used to conceal the real barriers women females face in accessing female sport.

When you put it like that it's pretty brutal.

Apollo441 · 21/08/2023 09:02

Their statement is utter shite. You can say the words that there is 'no evidence' by ignoring all the crystal clear evidence but it is still a lie. As for suggesting we remove the male/female class and just segregate boxing by weight is laughable and would put women in danger of being killed or maimed. Sports was always going to be the first to fall. Now TWAW doesn't apply to sports we can turn our attention to other areas where it shouldn't apply, prisons (winning this), hospital wards, shelters and changing rooms.

AnSolas · 21/08/2023 09:02

That is why the twist of language is so important for anyone trying to sell an idea which is against social norms

AnSolas · 21/08/2023 09:09

Apollo441 · 21/08/2023 09:02

Their statement is utter shite. You can say the words that there is 'no evidence' by ignoring all the crystal clear evidence but it is still a lie. As for suggesting we remove the male/female class and just segregate boxing by weight is laughable and would put women in danger of being killed or maimed. Sports was always going to be the first to fall. Now TWAW doesn't apply to sports we can turn our attention to other areas where it shouldn't apply, prisons (winning this), hospital wards, shelters and changing rooms.

Sport was always going to be a pivot in the US as unlike in the UK, lots of US parents are depending on sporting results to partfund college educations for their children. So each boy on a girls team is a threat to the family budget as a whole

Alltheprettyseahorses · 21/08/2023 10:01

This paragraph in SP's article really stood out:

After all, if transgender people truly represented such a threat to fairness in sport, shouldn’t there be countless examples of us storming our way en masse to gold medals and prize podiums with little resistance, rather than just the imagined threat of such?

Well I don't know, SP - maybe it's just that not every trans person is a sporting cheat, that's always a possibility. Or even in the physical condition needed for elite sports.

As for the 'moral panic' hyperbole, there was no 'moral panic' until transactivists created a 'moral panic' about transpeople being treated like everyone else and having to compete in their own sex categories.

2Rebecca · 21/08/2023 10:29

They have been storming their way to podium places though once the rules allowed them to which is why women were complaining. You don't need lots of male born competitors in women's sports to disadvantage women as there are only 3 medals. If they really just wanted to compete then the open category would be fine.

HootyMcBooby76 · 21/08/2023 11:13

If we were allowed to say what trans women actually ARE, and then re-read that banner in your head, then it becomes plain just how ridiculous this scenario (and whole ideology) actually IS.

Women's sport is not for men.
Women's sport is not the fall back position for mediocre men who cannot excel in their own sex class.

Men who want to enter and win at women's sports are filthy cheating scum.

Oh, and where are all the trans MEN protesting about men's sports? How bizarre.......

Almosthadenoughacademic · 21/08/2023 11:18

I have anc have had many lovely gay men in my life, but it can't be denied that there are some gay men who hate women (esp lesbians). Jarvis seems to be one of them.

Almosthadenoughacademic · 21/08/2023 11:21

Almosthadenoughacademic · 21/08/2023 11:18

I have anc have had many lovely gay men in my life, but it can't be denied that there are some gay men who hate women (esp lesbians). Jarvis seems to be one of them.

Sorry about typos 😳

IcakethereforeIam · 21/08/2023 11:28

Noticed that article mentioned Serena Williams, let's hear from the great woman herself on that exact subject (from about 1.40)*

*Don't know anything about this Rubin Report, he might be evil 😳

Watch Leftist's Face When Riley Gaines Corrects Her Lie with This Fact | DM CLIPS | Rubin Report

Dave Rubin of “The Rubin Report” shares a clip of HRC President Kelly Robinson being questioned by Senator John Neely Kennedy and having her women’s sports f...

https://youtu.be/9ajgNIHQ4Ho