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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Irish politician who supported the GRA now discovers he's expected to learn about 58 genders, he's not happy!

91 replies

Fenlandia · 04/08/2023 19:39

Gerard Craughwell is an independent senator:

"Has the entire country gone stark raving mad. We passed the Gender Recognition Bill. I fully supported it. I never expected to be handed a sheet defining some 58 genders"
https://twitter.com/GCraughwell/status/1687416588608094208

Link to Irish Times piece "Government departments hold pronouns workshops to support colleagues’ gender identity"
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/08/03/government-departments-hold-pronouns-workshops-to-support-colleagues-gender-identity/

It's both hilarious and tragic - I actually he doesn't get too much ridicule/abuse as he needs to work through exactly what he's enabled

https://twitter.com/GCraughwell/status/1687416588608094208

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 05/08/2023 05:39

He gave at least 5 speeches on the Bill, he knew exactly what this Bill entailed

In one of those speeches he said:

The Bill shows scant regard for the Yogyakarta Principles, which are widely considered by governments, legal experts, international human rights bodies and many national courts as an authoritative legal statement.

Could someone put him in touch with Robert Wintermute?

Froodwithatowel · 05/08/2023 08:32

It is staggering that he apparently just stood up and voiced someone else's information to influence a law without the content of what he said ever passing through his brain.

Having been forced to LARP a belief not held in regard to people being able to transubstantiate, and that the evidence of our eyes and ears is nothing before faith, under threat of job loss, vilification, arrest, because of people in power like him , we are now going to have to LARP sympathy that apparent people in a responsible position had no idea what they were enabling, and are now horrified and wanting to talk. Because without that patience there is no way to undo this mess and find a balance where everything and everyone can go back to co existing in mutual tolerance.

Which does not help, when what I'd really like to do is tell him in great detail what I think of him and what he's helped to do to women and children, and wonder what exactly he thinks tax payers are paying him for.

That never gets added into the definition of 'actual' woman, does it? The ones who regardless of everyone else's behaviours always have to take a deep breath, put themselves aside and help and encourage others to pick up their mess. Because if they don't, no other bugger is going to do it.

AnSolas · 05/08/2023 08:57

Farmageddon · 04/08/2023 19:46

I'm glad he is speaking up - so many aren't in Ireland, which is frustrating. But I have to ask, what did he think the GRA actually meant? Did he really not think there would be wide ranging consequences to it?

These are the people enacting laws - surely they do their due diligence? Why did he (and others) not critically analyse whether or not it was a good idea to allow people legally change sex.

As I understand this was passed after a male who had external male sex organs removed and breast sugery took Ireland to court and lost. This was supported by a respected organisation. The court ruled that government should not be involved in the day to day of a persons life.

On the face of it the law was good for good people who would not be demanding to undermine womens rights.
It was about passports and being patted down going through airports.

Not about forcing other people to change their day to day life or when governement puts violent men in womens prisons.

The only provision to ignore a GRC was for sex specific sex crimes, i guess the politician did not ask "convicted so what happens next"

AnSolas · 05/08/2023 09:01

Wanderingowl · 04/08/2023 20:04

The GRA doesn't mean that because it is only in effect for adults currently. It also has absolutely nothing to do with 58 genders. Should he have done better due diligence about what it did mean? Yes absolutely. Though it was 2015 and it was attached to the very popular, voted in by landslide referendum, Marriage Equality Act that most of the country was delighted about. It was hidden like that for a reason. But it currently only means that adults can legally change their sex to the other a maximum of two times.

Its 16 with high court approval

and the current government want to remove the high court and lower the age.

But it currently only means that adults can legally change their sex to the other a maximum of two times.

Where is the limit of 2 times in the legislation?

Do you know a act and section for this?**

Cailin66 · 05/08/2023 09:06

The good news is that this Senator has realised that gender woo woo is nonsense.

AnSolas · 05/08/2023 09:11

SequentialAnalyst · 04/08/2023 22:34

Came across this lower down the first Tweet thread. I am English in England, but take an interest in what's happening over there.

But a referendum to remove the word "women" from the Constitution? Hmm

twitter.com/PoliticsWatch14/status/1687465309119148032?s=20

THE FAMILY

ARTICLE 41

1 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

2 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

2° The State shall, therefore, endeavour to ensure that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to the neglect of their duties in the home.

the proposal is to remove or amend section 2.1 and or 2.2 which would run a panzer tank division through case law and all legistation passed since it became the consitution.

AnSolas · 05/08/2023 09:30

JacquelinePot · 04/08/2023 20:41

And it's not just the GRA, it's the Equality Act, too (is it the same there as in England?). There's no age limit in the EA on the "Gender reassignment" PC and as we saw with the Haldene judgement, if it's not 1000% nailed down, people will use the most lax interpretation. Plus, as uou rightly say, the fudge for adults, facilitates the fudge for kids.

The Irish Equality act always used the word gender not sex and other acts would have switched from sex to gender.
However pre 2015 the Dail when passing legistation had no intent that the courts would split the meaning of sex and gender. So a judge could not go "this law which says the female gender / woman gender included males of any type" because they were 2 words with 1 meaning.
So the Canadian ball waxing case would have failed in a salon on the basis the employee can not be forced to touch a client.
But now if a GRC was presented the employee could be lawfully instructed

AnSolas · 05/08/2023 09:41

PatatiPatatras · 04/08/2023 20:49

I'm tired of the dancing around the wording of the GRA whenever the wording suits.
One moment the GRA does not apply to kids, the next we have to respect the kids choices because we are not supposed to ask or assume that they will or will not want a GRA in future.

Which one is it? It applies or it doesn't apply? Because if it is not the root cause of stating boys can share dorms with girls in TQ+ guidance, which legislation is?

No one is allowed to just ask, so the school has to have a specific law to exclude a member of the one sex

GRA
18(4) The person to whom the gender recognition certificate is issued shall not be required to produce it as proof of gender or identity for any purpose save as required by law.

One of the things the current government are doing is tap dancing around education when it comes to parental rights and freedom of religion.
One of the reasons Ireland has not had a massive issue in schools is because they are so fragmented and have various ethos.

FrancescaContini · 05/08/2023 09:57

I thought there were 72 genders? Or was it 86?

Astonishing that he hadn’t thought through the implications of men “being” women.

FrancescaContini · 05/08/2023 09:59

Hepwo · 04/08/2023 22:33

I'm glad the Germans gave us the word

Schadenfreude

😂

AnSolas · 05/08/2023 10:21

@miri1985 Thanks for the research.
Second one is a treat🤪

Dustin can sit down, shut up and stop whining about the menu.

DeanElderberry · 05/08/2023 11:23

Lydia Foy was the main driver of this - ego-driven, persistent, rich enough to keep going, went to a school that provided good connections, constantly on RTE for years mopping up sympathy.

Lydia's wife and children didn't get as much attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

Farmageddon · 05/08/2023 15:10

DeanElderberry · 05/08/2023 11:23

Lydia Foy was the main driver of this - ego-driven, persistent, rich enough to keep going, went to a school that provided good connections, constantly on RTE for years mopping up sympathy.

Lydia's wife and children didn't get as much attention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Foy

Seems like many of the other prominent TW pushing this movement along - very privileged, but somehow claiming victimhood.

Letmespeak82 · 05/08/2023 15:14

Wanderingowl · 04/08/2023 20:04

The GRA doesn't mean that because it is only in effect for adults currently. It also has absolutely nothing to do with 58 genders. Should he have done better due diligence about what it did mean? Yes absolutely. Though it was 2015 and it was attached to the very popular, voted in by landslide referendum, Marriage Equality Act that most of the country was delighted about. It was hidden like that for a reason. But it currently only means that adults can legally change their sex to the other a maximum of two times.

Aren't they two separate pieces of legislation passed at different dates. I often hear people say they were "attached" but I don't understand how. Can you explain?

ArabeIIaScott · 05/08/2023 15:33

Well ffs.

Is this what we have to look forward to, now? Months of people who are PAID TO SCRUTINISE AND ENACT LEGISLATION and take difficult decisions coming out all baffled and indignant that WHAT WE FUCKING SAID WOULD HAPPEN HAS FUCKING HAPPENED?

Irish politician who supported the GRA now discovers he's expected to learn about 58 genders, he's not happy!
NitroNine · 05/08/2023 15:36

It’s funny isn’t it - oppose any of it & you’re a West Brit; while your ones pushing this, all the people who’ve the power, are essentially following the Denton’s playbook, trampling all over the rights of the Irish people, wealthy & well-connected - & sometimes actual Brits! What happened up in Donegal last month is a perfect example of that power & privilege at work.

To be clear, I think chucking about “West Brit” as an insult is rancid, but as it’s such a favourite of TRA’s in Ireland (who, notably, aren’t always Irish, lots of Americans IDing as Irish) thought it was worth picking apart. Oh & of course it’s ragingly misogynistic, the whole business of asserting Irish women cannot think for themselves but are blindly following the Brits - by which they ofc really mean The Evil English 🙄.

Mother says she was reported to police over concerns about TENI event - Gript

Woman says she was accused of "hate speech"

https://gript.ie/mother-says-she-was-reported-to-police-over-concerns-about-teni-event/

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 05/08/2023 15:57

It is staggering that he apparently just stood up and voiced someone else's information to influence a law without the content of what he said ever passing through his brain

So it appears we now have a choice between

politicians who are so stupid they genuinely believe people can change sex

politicians who secretly don't believe it but are prepared to state that they do if it gets them into power

or

politicians who state they agree with it without reading the laws that enact those beliefs and then are horrified when they do read it and realise what it entails.

Any which way, what it say about those politicians and political discourse generally is bloody depressing.

WickedSerious · 05/08/2023 16:09

Oh dear,who saw this coming?

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 05/08/2023 16:21

WickedSerious · 05/08/2023 16:09

Oh dear,who saw this coming?

Apart from a lot of women who can do that thinking things through malarkey (that an astonishing number of people in the public eye and who claim to pass the laws that apply to the rest of us can't seem to manage), you mean? 😆

WickedSerious · 05/08/2023 16:25

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 05/08/2023 16:21

Apart from a lot of women who can do that thinking things through malarkey (that an astonishing number of people in the public eye and who claim to pass the laws that apply to the rest of us can't seem to manage), you mean? 😆

Indeed and I don't think any of us strained our brain in the process.

ILikeDungs · 05/08/2023 16:45

Yes, it looks like he knew exactly what the Bill entailed, and indeed he complained in his speeches that it did not go far enough (for instance, that children under 16 were not included). He also proudly lists all the groups he consulted. None of them included women, the cunty kind, of course.

Obvious reverse ferret I'd say. If not he deserves loud and continuous ridicule for being the most useless and dangerous of politicians, Golden Bridge be damned.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 05/08/2023 17:06

Yes, it looks like he knew exactly what the Bill entailed, and indeed he complained in his speeches that it did not go far enough (for instance, that children under 16 were not included). He also proudly lists all the groups he consulted. None of them included women, the cunty kind, of course

Does he seriously think people can't check this stuff?

Froodwithatowel · 05/08/2023 17:35

ILikeDungs · 05/08/2023 16:45

Yes, it looks like he knew exactly what the Bill entailed, and indeed he complained in his speeches that it did not go far enough (for instance, that children under 16 were not included). He also proudly lists all the groups he consulted. None of them included women, the cunty kind, of course.

Obvious reverse ferret I'd say. If not he deserves loud and continuous ridicule for being the most useless and dangerous of politicians, Golden Bridge be damned.

Yes. He really has stuffed himself, as he either has to now admit he lied and knew exactly what he was doing - so why is he now getting all shocked about it? Is he seeing the political tide turning and is getting in ahead of the game?

Or is he admitting that he just read out stuff prepared by someone else without really engaging with it, and just acted the lines with no grasp of what he was doing?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Because of the damned situation these ruddy people have put us all in, I suspect we are going to have to (again) be the patient and generous ones as they all spin yet more bullshit as they row back on all this.

Yes, it is phenomenally depressing that there are people like this in positions of such responsibility, and it leads to the thought that the political system is one that needs very radical overhaul. As with Johnson and Cummings you're left thinking - these cannot possibly be the best of the minds available to do the job.

ILikeDungs · 05/08/2023 18:15

Blast Twitter, it won't let me read it but I am too stubborn to sign up!

Is anyone pointing out the painful facts to him there??

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