Canadian professor advocates exposing kids to adult genitals

[Xoxoxoxoxoxox]

Thieme, a female Canadian (UBC) Journalism professor's tweet was:

“Hey, want to know one of my all time excellent parenting ideas? Let. Little. Children. See. Penises. And. Vulvas. Of. Various. Ages. And. Sizes. In. A. Casual. Normalized. Totally. Safe. Way. The world will thank you for it. And so will those children when they grow up,”

“Just imagine if the Riley Gaines‘ of this society could totally keep their cool at the sight of a trans dick. And just imagine if Riley Gaines’ parents were like, yeah, that happens, it’s okay, now let’s talk about your upcoming training schedule.”

I'm always aghast at the lengths some supporters of this movement will go to remove all safeguarding for women and children without any seeming endpoint to it. Everyone should just be fine with harmless naked trans dicks everywhere, I just don't understand what motivates her.

https://twitter.com/TrueNorthCentre/status/1686519679865552897

Nah. Because you're the one proposing the preposterous idea that it's safe to raise small children to think it's normal if strange adults expose their genitals to them. The onus is on you to prove it's safe.

Are you saying her decision to name Riley Gaines was not an informed one?

Riley Gaines has made it very clear that she was never given a choice, that had she be given a choice she would not have given her consent.

The male had the option to make a choice.
The male decided to not ask for consent

What happened in these family holiday camps when a male/female guest breached the socially expectations were the other guests expected to ignore acts deemed offensive or was the social norm to have the guest removed?

This I went to nudist camps so why can't women accept men in their spaces crap really annoys me.

Most people have no idea what it takes to get into a swimming costume for a competitive swimmer.

It needs to be very very very tight to the skin. It involves adjusting and getting into positions that most people never get into in front of anyone - still less people of the opposite sex.

There is this madey up scenario where Riley Gaines and the other young women didn't want to simply drop their clothes and pull on a swim suit because -- Bigot! That's not how women swimmers get dressed for competition.

I can also guarantee you that every other woman competing against Lia felt exactly as Riley Gaines did. They didn't speak up because they knew it was social suicide to do so.

I had 2 daughters in US colleges at the time Lia went down. Yes it would be social suicide.

My Grandparents were members of a nudist ‘club’. It’s so different as every adult there knows there will be naked adults of both sexes. Also it was very private, members had to be vetted and no single men allowed to join.

My kids see DH and I undressed, but both DDs hate it when boys are in the Ladies changing room at the pool.

DM are covering it. I hope, between caring for horses, the woman has a wee think.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12367279/Journalism-professor-claims-children-exposed-adult-GENITALIA-prepare-seeing-naked-trans-people-locker-rooms-shocking-jab-swimmer-Riley-Gaines.html?ico=related-replace

Journalism!!

Are you saying her decision to name Riley Gaines was not an informed one?
Yes, I think it’s uninformed and old-fashioned in the sense that it seems to me that Katja’s view has a lot in common with the 1970s views I experienced on naturist sites popular with Europeans during my childhood.

What happened in these family holiday camps when a male/female guest breached the socially expectations were the other guests expected to ignore acts deemed offensive or was the social norm to have the guest removed?

Great question. There were more than social expectations where we went (S. of France) when I was a child. There were clear rules in place that everyone had to follow. If you didn’t follow them, then yes you were made to leave the campsite and got no refund. The rules were things like pop on a pair of pants or sit on a towel when at the cafe/restaurant for meals so no sweaty bare bums on the chairs. No horseplay when swimming. Basically no touching anyone even a child without explicit permission, even if it’s to help them up if they fell over. You did have be be naked except for foot wear/hat in most areas unless the weather required clothing (rain storm) as it was naturist and not for clothed people to come and gawp- so refusing to be naked would be cause for removal. The social expectations were no sexualised clothing as it was a family place - so it was floppy Sun hats and utility sandals all round. Perhaps a bum bag with extra suncream and a towel when off to go sun and swim. There was an exception from nudity for girls/women on their periods- can have bottoms on. No whistling, cat calling, hand/body motions or commentary on bodies whatsoever between guests. All family groups, no groups of young adults looking to party or anything like that.

If you broke a law (indecency/voyeurism in the showers or toilets or sexual assault or you touching your own genitals/masturbating/sex in public) they’d call the police and the offending person arrested and the rest of their family group would be removed from the site.

But she is not looking to have a naturist situation as she is not saying mixed sex.

She is saying when a male sees 2 single sex changing room options he gets to choose to walk into a room filled with females and that should be the basic social expectation.

There was an exception from nudity for girls/women on their periods- can have bottoms on

Nothing like letting the world know you’re “unclean” that week is there for enjoying your summer holiday 😕

Periods don’t make you unclean 🙄

Can you not understand that it might be uncomfortable to be roaming around with a tampon string dangling in plain sight? Or that not all girls/women can use tampons and prefer pads- and what are you going to stick the pad to if no bottoms? Should they just walk around with one hand holding it in place? And that most European girls/women are not a fan of free bleeding?

(this was before moon cups and period pants)

I think she is conflating two completely different things.
Kids seeing naked people.
Trans issues.
Loads of kids grow up perfectly fine in 'naked cultures'.
TWANW and perhaps seeing them naked, pulls back the curtain on this more obviously than anything else.

Nah, I haven’t claimed it is safe. You’ve made an extraordinary claim that it is risky so you need to back up your claim with evidence. Since you can’t, it’s just a subjective opinion.

Sorry, we are discussing why she may have said this and only this tweet
Hey, want to know one of my all time excellent parenting ideas? Let. Little. Children. See. Penises. And. Vulvas. Of. Various. Ages. And. Sizes. In. A. Casual. Normalized. Totally. Safe. Way. The world will thank you for it. And so will those children when they grow up,” said Thieme.

So even in a naturist setting there was an acknowledged difference between unwanted physical exposure and voyeurism and just being au naturel and doing everyday activities in what seems to be mainly family oriented groups?

But this professor knowingly conflates the two.

You rather make the case against the professor (assuming we agree that her motives are as you say) since I imagine (and you provide anecdotal evidence) that you have to be hyper aware in a nudist setting to someone using and misappropriating the situation and vulnerabilities of being nude for sexually fetishistic reasons.

Here the professor says children should see naked genitalia (and which person doesn't over a life time anyway) as a norm. Then says a situation in which a man gets naked in a female only space where he isn't wanted and is in fact an aberration is the same as the former.

You missed the tone, that’s the problem with written word I suppose.

I was imagining being in that situation and being one of only a few walking round in bottoms. Particularly as a teenager I would have been very uncomfortable with signalling to the world that I was on my period. But I guess if you have been brought up in that environment maybe it would not feel like that.

Anyway, I don’t wish to derail the thread, it was a passing “eurgh” moment in reading.

“So even in a naturist setting there was an acknowledged difference between unwanted physical exposure and voyeurism and just being au naturel and doing everyday activities in what seems to be mainly family oriented groups?”

Yes definitely. You didn’t have people wondering around peeking at others pitches. The pitches were spread out in little private areas off the trail, so you had privacy. The campsites are not like the cheek by jowl ones here in the U.K. All the toilets/showers were individual self contained units so each person had complete privacy. Oh there was no photography allowed either- site rule- so no nude holiday snaps for a wank bank back home.

Yes, she is comparing apples to oranges by comparing it to the Riley Gaines situation imho. Even in a naturist setting, the showering/changing type of space is one where you’d have an expectation of privacy.

As that teen in that exact situation, let me tell you it was a relief to be allowed to wear a bottom! (Which for me was a bikini bottom).

But it is in the context of both of her tweets.

“Hey, want to know one of my all time excellent parenting ideas? Let. Little. Children. See. Penises. And. Vulvas. Of. Various. Ages. And. Sizes. In. A. Casual. Normalized. Totally. Safe. Way. The world will thank you for it. And so will those children when they grow up,”

If it was a single tweet about how children would benefit from growing up in a socity which is not pushing a highly sexualised agenda around nudity nobody should argue against that.

they’d call the police and the offending person arrested and the rest of their family group would be removed from the site.

Your society banished the family of people who broke the rule around sexual behaviours

All family groups, no groups of young adults looking to party or anything like that.

And was highly risk adverse

“Just imagine if the Riley Gaines‘ of this society could totally keep their cool at the sight of a trans dick. And just imagine if Riley Gaines’ parents were like, yeah, that happens, it’s okay, now let’s talk about your upcoming training schedule.”

But the words were not about what your parents were trying to teach you as in your social context your parents would have expected the police to be called.

Ok? I think you’re singing to the choir here. I was describing my experience on naturist camp sites mostly to inform posters who had no experience and to illustrate that Katja is making an uninformed conflation of naturism to situations like the Riley Gaines one.

That she’s using naturism as a sort of Trojan Horse to justify it, when even on naturist campsites (ime), you’d still have an expectation of privacy in the toilets, showers and changing areas both on your pitch and in the shower cubicle.

Katja is quoting naturist principles wrongly- they don’t apply to the TW in female sex spaces at all.

Ok crossed lines👍

That is why i asked about the RG element.

It sounds as if you were not entirely comfortable with forced nudity. If that's the case, I'm sorry you had that experience.

So perhaps you can imagine how the swimmers felt when a tall male was in the changing room with them and they were similarly pressured into nudity that they found uncomfortable.

Consent can be slightly more complex than it seems. Invisible pressures are huge - social opprobrium is enormously powerful, added to threats of career being damaged and confusion over the (in this case) unwritten rules.

“Hey, want to know one of my all time excellent parenting ideas? Let. Little. Children. See. Penises. And. Vulvas. Of. Various. Ages. And. Sizes. In. A. Casual. Normalized. Totally. Safe. Way. The world will thank you for it. And so will those children when they grow up,”

wrt exposing children to adults (be warned before you read), far from a new idea. Exposes just how far people will second-guess themselves in the name of being progressive.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/the-sexual-revolution-and-children-how-the-left-took-things-too-far-a-702679.html

Helen Joyce's Quillette piece

https://quillette.com/2018/12/04/the-new-patriarchy-how-trans-radicalism-hurts-women-children-and-trans-people-themselves/

That Spiegel article is worth reading and then re-reading from time to time. As is this one about John Money (from 1997):

https://www.healthyplace.com/gender/inside-intersexuality/the-true-story-of-john-joan

The reason both have particular value is that they were written and published years before various anti-safeguarding ideologies hit the mainstream and then many obvious and commonplace things became impossible to write about straightforwardly (well, if journalists wanted to keep their jobs).

Importantly a person can consent to nudity in one context and reject it in another. I am sure there are people who are committed nudists around friends who would not want to share a public changing room with the opposite sex, for example.

Or, a doctor might see men undressed at work on a regular basis. She still probably wouldn't be happy with a male friend stripping off uninvited in her living room.

yes, the idea that people (well, let's be honest: women) should be comfortable with anyone flashing them at any time in any situation, and that this should be achieved by men showing their dicks to children like some kind of childhood inoculation against boundaries is....odd

And only ever became a virtue when male people began to find it inconvenient for female people to have such boundaries.