Adolescent Transgender Identity Is Associated With Bullying Involvement

[meowgender]

Saw this on Ovarit earlier, some interesting results from this study of around 140,000 teenagers:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.612424/full

Secondly, we found that transgender identity was generally associated with perpetrating bullying and that the association was stronger than that of transgender identity and being bullied.

Thirdly, non-binary identity was more strongly associated with involvement in bullying than opposite sex identity.

Any theories for why this would happen?

For me the obvious explanation is that claiming a trans identity is, in the current environment, a way to acquire power. So it makes sense it will be adopted by those who wish to use power to hurt.

This is a cynical explanation. A less cynical one might be that they are suffering because they are trans, poor lambs, so they are driven to take it out on other people.

It is massively true of the kingpin trans child at my dc’s school

I suppose another explanation would be that there is a common cause for both: they are troubled in some way so one thing they do is bully and another is seize on a trans identity because they think it will explain their problems.

Fascinating research, wonder if these results could be reproduced with an adult sample.

It is fascinating, and raises the question of whether all the viciousness we've seen directed at GC women is an outlier in terms of modes of interaction for TRAs, or whether it's the core.

I was never a bully to my fellow teens but I was an annoying little shit that engaged in endless power plays with teachers:

If I were at school in 2020 rather than 1990 I would absolutely have adopted an ever-changing xenogender and all associated ‘pronouns’ and wielded both against authority figures/used them as leverage to get out of class/avoid a telling off for not doing my homework.

Doesn’t surprise me at all that the same tool can be, and is, weaponised against classmates and peers.

If ever there was a study where I'd want to see sex disaggregated ...

Doesn’t surprise me in the least that people who want to control others language, bend society’s rules and demolish boundaries are bullies. If they were all shy retiring wallflowers they wouldn’t have achieved what they have.

Indeed. The cohort has changed massively. In the early days before trans activists were allowed to gaslight children in schools the cohort were usually young boys - often unpopular / socially isolated children. The damaging guidance from Mermaids suggested that primary schools held celebratory assemblies for these children to announce their special new status. This not only "glued" them into their "new" sex so that changing their minds was impossible but also gave them a status and adult protection they'd never had before. It was tragic to see.

Since the gaslighting of children has exploded it's now teenage girls in the midst of puberty who believe the lies sold to them. I can absolutely see the potential for some children to use their new status to bully others but can never unsee how all these children have been literally groomed and gaslit by some of the most unethical adults and groups in society.

They are victims.

I may very well be being stupid and I have no statistics background but I am confused by the finding that 'transgender identities were more strongly associated with perpetration of bullying that subjection to bullying' leading to the conclusion that 'bullying during adolescence may serve as a mechanism of maintaining heteronormativity'

I thought it was all sweetness, love and trans acceptance by the zoomers and the alphas? Is the researcher suggesting otherwise?

I think the results on that need highlighting here:

Results: Both experiences of being bullied and perpetrating bullying were more commonly reported by transgender youth than by cisgender youth. Among transgender youth, all involvement in bullying was more commonly reported by non-binary youth than those identifying with the opposite sex. Logistic regression revealed that non-binary identity was most strongly associated with involvement in bullying, followed by opposite sex identity and cisgender identity. Transgender identities were also more strongly associated with perpetration of bullying than subjection to bullying.

So in summary. In contrast with the narrative of the most 'vulnerable group' what is being observed is a pattern where being trans has a higher rate of abusing others than being a victim of abuse.

When we have talked about this on MN over the years, one of the observations has been about the need for TRAs to control others and how there seems to be a pattern of how its NOT about identity but about power over others (pretty much what bullying is).

Its fascinating that someone did this study at all too. A few years ago, I can't see it having been possible.

From the article. My bold.

Conclusion: Transgender identity, especially non-binary identity, is associated with both being bullied and perpetrating bullying even when a range of variables including internal stress and involvement in bullying in the opposite role are taken into account. This suggests that bullying during adolescence may serve as a mechanism of maintaining heteronormativity.

The whole article is written in the language of gender identity (use of "cisgender" and "assigned at birth"), which suggests there could be a bias at play somewhere. However, that aside, can anyone help me translate the words in bold. Each time I read them I translate it as "we conclude the purpose of bullying during adolescence is to keep people straight and conforming to the stereotypes that are associated with their sex". i.e. these people are oppressed because of their gender identity and they can't help the fact that they play their role as bully or being bullied. A weird non-sensical cross reference.

Sadly/happily I don't have a degree in queer theory so I'm struggling to navigate the language with ease.

If my understanding of those words is correct, then this seems to be a case of sleight of hand around the cause and effect i.e. taking it as a given that these people are trans and there is no need to question what led them to identify as transgender (fact not belief). Then because they are trans they are either victims of bullying or perpetrators, where the world of "heteronormativity" has created the bullying problem.

My head hurts.

*a weird non-sensical circular reference

That was my take @BonfireLady and why I was confused by the conclusion.

Yep first hand experience of this. Boy at school was very much invincible for a while - teachers were in awe/cautious of going against his very publicised ‘oppression’. Police were fairly good but he laughed at them behind their back. Social Services I think learned a lot from him.

I think it is almost intentionally nonsensical. I suspect the researchers don’t dare to write their real thoughts on the findings - it was heretical enough to ask this question in the first place - so they’ve filled their Discussion section with a lot of TRA friendly word salad to avoid cancellation.

The reason I think the discussion section is disingenuous is that although the researchers completely avoided mentioning the “obvious explanation” that pp brought up, which was probably the first thing many of us thought of - that being trans gives bullies power- if the researchers were fully brainwashed to the point of not seeing the obvious, they wouldn’t even have investigated whether trans kids bully.

Another one with secondary school kids who can confirm that for some children it is absolutely a power trip. Not only can they directly bully other children, they can recruit pupils and staff to join in.

Phew! Glad I'm not alone.

I definitely have some thoughts around bullying being connected to gender identity but not from this angle at all. I'm going to ignore the confusing findings and conclusion of article on the basis that I don't have a gender identity so it is a false premise as a start point for me.

However, happy to share my thoughts on the topic if they are of interest:

1) Being a bully:
There was a great thread some time ago where Maslow's hierarchy of needs was discussed in relation to TRAs perpetrating bullying. The summary was that the fear that they feel comes from a genuine place. And the bullying behaviour is driven by fear. That's a gross oversimplification of how it relates to Maslow's hierarchy of needs but I can try and find the thread if it's of interest.
Also, there's the very simple and known phenomenon that the bullied can become the bullies, which leads to...

2) Being bullied
This is more complex and multi-faceted. I'll borrow my own words from another thread to describe it through the lens of my autistic gender-questioning adolescent daughter who was being bullied (because of her autistic reactions - kids enjoyed poking the bear to see what happened) before she started questioning her gender. Gender identity became her go to answer. The most important part in regards to the bullying specifically is that it happened before the gender identity questioning.

A resistance to change - your own body changing is the ultimate betrayal. How dare my body do this? It must need fixing.

Sensory - boobs feel weird in clothing. They get in the way. I don't need them.

Sensory - Periods are awful. What's the point in having them. I don't want children anyway.

Androgyny - Many autistic girls don't see any point in the impracticality of skirts, dresses, sequins, hair accessories etc. I like wearing "boys' clothes"

Anxiety/low self-esteem/being bullied for being a "weirdo".... and...

Social media combined with Be Kind - there is community out there that is calling me in. They don't bully me. They understand me and I can find my people here.

Exiting girlhood - girls are weak. If I was stronger I could stop those bullies.

Obsession/fixation/locked in thinking - There is an answer! I must be a boy! It is the only logical explanation. I'm not going to change my mind. I'm determined.

The bias in the medical and mental health professions - let's start by affirming your identity and take it one step at a time. Change your name, change your pronouns... Not feeling better yet? OK, let's bind your breasts. Still not feeling any better and your breasts are now getting bigger... OK, let's put you on puberty blockers to give you some time to think and pause your physical development before you feel any worse... Still no better? Have some hormones. Still no better and you've got back pain from all the binding...? Well, "top surgery" is your answer. Check out all these happy cool people who are posting photos of themselves with their surgery scars. Do you want to feel like that too? Instead of: let's explore why you're feeling at odds with your body.. and how that might link to your wider mental health issues and experiences.

So in summary, logical order of play is:

1. an adolescent is bullied for one or more reasons. That's what kids do to each other and sadly always have done
2. there is a supportive community out there that will make the adolescent feel special. They believe they have found the answer to all their problems and won't get bullied any more
3. Some of the bullying stops when they start to enjoy their status as an oppressed person with a trans gender identity
4. eventually the bullying continues because none of the underlying problems have gone away
5. they feel angry and scared and are constantly told they are marginalised. Some of them become bullies in response to this.

And a great way to cancel eviscetate any adult or peer you dislike with the perpetual unchallengable victim therefore 'in the right' status.

Very interesting and reminded me of doing manual chi-square before eventually spreadsheeting it.

I have to try to untangle the language of the author from the data / what the data shows.

More research needed as they say, but this is food for thought.

Interesting that there was a "negative association between natal female sex and perpetrating bullying".

Its not being talked about enough but the comorbid factors in trans girls in particular (although also counts for some boys but boys are not the biggest cohort in children at the moment) is ASD and/or a trauma background.

So children who are likely more than not to have poor social/peer interaction skills, poor attachment, suffering trauma/loss etc, suddenly being given a huge authoritative power and sense of self without getting help for the initial issues (often these arent even diagnosed at the point of the trans stuff), and learnign how to interact positively with peers without having to assume a perpetrator identity in order to overcome their difficulties.

People just dont want to address this stuff.