Adolescent Transgender Identity Is Associated With Bullying Involvement

[meowgender]

Saw this on Ovarit earlier, some interesting results from this study of around 140,000 teenagers:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2020.612424/full

Secondly, we found that transgender identity was generally associated with perpetrating bullying and that the association was stronger than that of transgender identity and being bullied.

Thirdly, non-binary identity was more strongly associated with involvement in bullying than opposite sex identity.

Thinking about this a bit more...

I think the purpose of the article is to distract from how bullying can lead to children questioning their gender identity.
Instead their gender identity is presented as already in place and the inevitably of either becoming a bully or being bullied is explored from there.

I do agree with PPs that some interesting questions have been asked that until now have been considered heresy. However, I think that's simply to distract from the main purpose of the article. The gender identity community may feel under attack right now with the way things seem to be going in the news. This feels tactical.

Or... I need to take off my tin hat 😬

What does that mean, that girls presenting as boys are not likely to be bullies? I would dispute that.

While "my anecdote does not a trend indicate," I have seen this played out in the "gender identity" teens I know. One mother was clearly a bully in parent groups (she transed her boy quite young) but the many teens I've met, including one in my own family, have bullying behaviors from making demands, claiming victimhood when challenged to shouting, running to admins for pronoun mistakes, vicious social media takedowns, friend alienation, etc.

One girl was mean queen bee at DD's middle grades school and would wear different colored rings which was to indicate her preferred identity and kids who didn't pay attention were ganged up on and teachers allowed it. This was ages 11-13 but funnily, now that they are older teens, she's lost her status because older kids won't put up with it any more. She's no longer popular but sadly, she's pulled in a cohort of vulnerable kids who desire friends and she continues her tirades on these "friends".

Another young adult I know is verbally and physically abusive to his parents, while contributing nothing to the family home or budget. I worry a great deal about internal family dynamics as mothers and fathers almost never report abuse from their children.

This is definitely where my radar is at.

My neighbour has ASD. We've had all sorts of problems with her. Without going into details it's not just us either. Now we just roll eyes and ignore her. Even the local police know she has form at this point.

She lacks the ability to navigate the world social so instead uses whatever power she can find to try and force things - all whilst playing the massive victim (which we bought initially). She just doesn't get how she is treating others is appalling and not conducive to a peaceful life.

We think it will explode again at some point so are documenting her nonsense.

In addition to that, there is almost certainly autism in my Dad's family which has never been formally picked up, but there's three generations where it seems apparent: my grandfather, my uncle and my brother. That's my brother who is trans and always struggled socially at school and was bullied.

None of this is really surprising to me. And I do think it's this inability to communicate effectively or positively due to autism rather than gender that's a massive factor here.

A very quick search found this on an American Autism website:
According to a 2010 review of multiple studies of special education bullying, disabled students are at least twice as likely both to be the victims of bullying and to be bullies themselves.

The complete failure to address the correlation going on with autism is a black hole in the whole scandal and it's clearly very central and key to problems with boundaries. Or lack of them.

What does that mean, that girls presenting as boys are not likely to be bullies? I would dispute that.

relatively less likely than boys presenting as girls (or as nonbinary)

I wonder if they had data on the sex of the victims. I would assume both groups tend to target girls.

I was about to say exactly the same thing. In DD2's year there is a trans boy and she is a huge bully and totally manipulates all the other girls who are constantly trying to ensure they are 'being kind'. Not helped by the fact that for some reason the school seems to try to ensure she wins every award/competition going.

This makes a lot of sense to me.

I've posted some of the co-morbiditity issues relating to my own autistic daughter in this thread.

We are supporting her with regards to the bullying she faced (it's had and continues to have) a massive impact on her self-esteem. However, we are also helping her to build resilience. She needs this in order to face the world. Everyone does, whether they are neuro-diverse or neurotypical. Unfortunately in the autism groups that I'm in, I see a huge shift towards maintaining victimhood: "The world needs to change to accommodate autistic people, autistic people don't need to change at all. To tell them to build resilience is oppressive".
Yes, more understanding would be great, but alongside building resilience, not instead of.

Maintaining victimhood will underpin a fear. Fear leads to even lower self-esteem. Add in the original bullying but even if that isn't a factor, if the autistic girl were to then have an even further elevated status as an oppressed transboy/non-binary person, that's an explosive mix for her becoming a perpetrator.

I assume it means that the subset of 'natal females' who present as boys were found in this study to be less likely to perpetrate bullying than 'natal males' who present as girls.

Though there doesn't seem to be any explicit statement that boys presenting as girls are more likely to be bullies.

I wonder if there needs to be more exploration of that, I can only speak anecdotally (I work with children) but the vast vast majority of children presenting as trans are girls and I find the few boys are more of a 'confused' personality quietly trying to make sense of themselves type, whereas the girls are very much with an extremist presentation.

Thats in general of course, there is always a mixture.

The complete failure to address the correlation going on with autism is a black hole in the whole scandal and it's clearly very central and key to problems with boundaries. Or lack of them.

Agreed.

Officially 35% of the children referred to GIDS between 2010 and 2019 were autistic i.e. they had an autism diagnosis. According to two GIDS clinicians, this number was really 48% (2010-2018). Here is their paper
GIDS paper

I suspect that the majority of those undiagnosed will have been girls, given the fact that referrals of girls rose 5000% between 2010 and 2019.

The Cass Review has the figures I have quoted above. Also Transgender Trend links to source documents.

I wonder if there needs to be more exploration of that, I can only speak anecdotally (I work with children) but the vast vast majority of children presenting as trans are girls and I find the few boys are more of a 'confused' personality quietly trying to make sense of themselves type

I don't know, perhaps it's different in the UK and Finland. But it didn't surprise me because from what you can observe online (I know that is mostly adults) the MtF have a tendency to be massive bullies. There are loads of female TRA bullies but they are generally more likely to be "allies" than to be FtM.

I assume that in 2023 survey included online bullying too, maybe that's part of the discrepancy. (Thinking of one infamous and ubiquitous MtF online bully who is reputed to be quiet and shy IRL.)

Another one with secondary school kids who can confirm that for some children it is absolutely a power trip. Not only can they directly bully other children, they can recruit pupils and staff to join in.

Knowing what many of these people are like as adults, I can totally see that.

A massive part of the problem is the policies that have been imposed on schools by trans lobby groups who have zero understanding of schools, child psychology, peer dynamics etc. These policies are written by self interested trans adults and never centre the needs of children. So they often embed bullying by creating a "sacred caste" who become untouchable along with undermining all the normal policies and support systems schools have by implying that this special group of children must stand outside accepted school "rules"
These children may not be challenged about problematic peer interactions for fear of transphobia, weaponise pronouns etc & the policies undermine all the expertise teachers have about dealing with mentally unwell children.

I said earlier these children are victims - and the impact of these policies further fosters their lack of empathy, social skills and self resilience.

Absolutely which is why there are such high levels of self harm/suicidal ideation, both as a way to control but equally because they're so miserable and unhappy because of that victim status.

They're not self harming and suicidal because they're trans and 'cant be their real selves', its because they need intervention for past issues and their coping skills.

"They're not self harming and suicidal because they're trans and 'cant be their real selves', its because they need intervention for past issues and their coping skills".

And all the responsible adults who should be supporting them are too terrified to use their skills cos "trans". Many of them have been alienated from their parents who have the love and the legal responsibility to care for them - but are labelled transphobes by both activists and the useful idiots in education etc who simply parrot the activist line.

Yes, we are harming children by these methods. Its impossible to speak out if you're in teaching/health/social work/police/ etc

I think there's an upcoming court case which may well touch on some of these issues to a greater or lesser degree. It scares me.