Believing in gender is a bit like believing in God

[Flowerypot]

New to this forum so apologies if I'm wording things clumsily.

I've been thinking about how to articulate how I feel about sex/gender without explicitly saying trans women aren't women, women don't have a penis etc. Lots of stuff has come up at work on this recently and we're a very 'be kind' organisation - lots of pride stuff, trans colleagues, colleagues with trans kids talking openly about that.

Does anyone else feel about gender how they feel about believing in God or religion? It's a concept not rooted in scientific fact - it's just something people believe in, right? And you can respect that but no religious beliefs trump protected characteristics etc

For example at work they're encouraging us to state our gender as well as race/ethnicity and there is no option to state 'none' like there would be with religion and I think there should be. The best option is 'other' but that doesn't really work for me.

Not sure what I'm asking really. Grateful for any thoughts!

I agree with that analogy.
I respect your right to believe but not believing doesn't make me a bad person and I expect the same respect back.
Trying to convert people isn't ok and your beliefs should never take priority over my lack of belief.
Your beliefs shouldn't force changes to my life.
I shouldn't feel scared to say I don't believe.

It's a reasonable analogy. Although I think there is not requirement to respect other people's religious beliefs, merely their right to hold those beliefs and for them not to be discriminated against because of that. I won't have respect for religious beliefs that I think are damaging and harmful.

The question "what is your gender identity?" is meaningless to me. I can answer "what is your sex?" easily without needing any particular belief system.

Thats about a succinct an explanation I have read anywhere, thank you. We are starting to go down the pronouns on email nonsense at work, and I can definitely use this.

Somewhere between this and flat-earthism!

Yes, OP, I agree. In many ways it's just like a religion.

One of the most important ways it should be treated as a religion is in schools. We don't allow religious believers to tell children they all have an immortal soul or a guardian angel (although "some people think that ..." is OK); we should not allow trans believers to tell children they all have a gender identity.

This then can spread out into wider society. I can respect someone who believes something different to me, even if I personally think they're wrong (even a bit barmy!) to believe it. That works out pretty well for other religions; it would be good if we could adopt it for gender religion too.

I would be questioning whether your workplace should be "encouragaing" declarations of race/ethnicity before you even get to gender-woo.

All labels are harmful. Your job title is the only meaningful info that should be on work emails.

I wondered about this. Why are they asking you to declare these things? Who do they want you to declare them to?

It's anonymised info. The company has a range of measures in place to encourage a more diverse workforce - all good stuff - and it reports on diversity etc - has targets for diversifying senior roles etc.I don't have any concerns about that. And it's encouraged but not mandatory

I agree it's exactly like religion.

My workplace do constant surveys. Always 'do you identify as the genser you were assigned at birth' 'yes, no, prefer not to say'

Any option other than 'yes' sticks you in the trans category. And 'yes' implies you believe in it. It's infuriating.

It's exactly the same as asking 'what religion are you?' 'Protestant' or 'Catholic'.

I agree with this.

However, the problem with gender ideology is that believing you have a gender identity rests fundamentally on having this affirmed by other people. A Christian, Muslim and atheist can all be in a room together and hold their beliefs entirely independently of each other. From what I can gather it's not enough for someone to privately have a 'gender identity'. It requires others to join the individual in their personal perception and signal that they do so.

All the virtue signalling with pronouns is a declaration that you will, if the situation arises, play along and to put pressure on people who would rather quietly keep their beliefs to themselves because if no one else believes in it, an individual's gender identity does not exist.

I agree that it can be compared to a religion (or cult) with its own chants and incantations- (TWAW).
The sacred caste are transwomen, souls trapped in the wrong body.

It's exactly the analogy I use when I talk to people about why I don't have either a gender or a gender identity. I just have a sex relating to my physical body: female. What I do as a female is a combination of how much I embrace ot reject the sex-based expectations that society puts my way as I go about my life.

I've explored this on a few threads on this board and it was pointed out to me (and I agree) that a major difference is that nobody needs me to affirm the existence of God/Allah as part of my support of their Christian/Muslim belief. PPs have said the same above here too.

If someone's belief in gender (identity) is fragile enough that my lack of belief in it upsets them, I will accept that they see me as a transphobe. Similar to how a Christian may view me as blasphemous or "unsaved" in relation to the other 44,000 who will be saved on the day of reckoning, when I tell them I don't believe in God.

Even with that important caveat, I still find it a helpful analogy.

Great post BonfireLady. It's the publicness of gender identity validation that winds me up. My very religious friends seem to cope quite happily with living alongside people of different faiths and none in a pluralistic society.

I think there is a difference: God might exist.

I bring this up when people say the 'wrong body' stuff. I just say "Oh right, I get you, I am an atheist so have a different perspective"
This always prompts questions and I then talk about souls etc - always makes them think

I think it's a faith-based position but at one step removed. A religious person could give you some idea of what they think their god is.

Belief in gender seems to mean a belief that somewhere out there is a meaningful concept - although nobody can describe it yet - which will somehow make it possible for a man to be a woman.

In general, in modern European societies, believing in God comes with an obligation to treat other people well, but doesn't put any responsibility on them to treat you in a particular way.

I know that there have been times and places where that hasn't been the case, but here and now.

I know trans people who don't think they were born in the wrong body. I feel like there is an assumption that this is what all trans people think but it isn't true.
They just know that they have gender dysphoria and their life is made bearable by changing their body. This doesn't equate to a belief that their body is the wrong one, it is more of an pragmatic way for them to get on with their life.

Absolutely a religion. Now imagine living in a country where everyone has to adhere to that religion or be called a bigot/lose their job/get death and rape threats. And the police won't do anything about it. Because you are living in such a country.

@fihawo
“One of the most important ways it should be treated as a religion is in schools.”

I very much hope it doesn’t get treated the same as a religion in schools. Permitted to discriminate in admissions against non-believers or those with non-believers as parents? Compulsory indoctrination every morning? 3 periods a week dedicated to it? And in secondary a compulsory GCSE in the subject, taking up a valuable option slot? (And the secondary isn’t even CofE unlike all the infants and juniors).

I think it a bit different to faith in a god as it is a belief about yourself rather than in another being. I don't have a gender identity myself but can accept that others do and that it feels real to them.
Am I an atheist or a believer in your eyes?

In the U.K., believing in god, particularly the right kind of god, gets you educational privileges (preferential access to schools) and political privileges (the leaders of the Church of England are all members (by right, not elected) of the House of Lords)).

Of course, an alternative way of putting this would be to say "I reject gnosticism." Preferrably coupled with a reference to the Council of Nicaea that saw the Gnostic body-soul dualism labeled a heresy 😀

I don't think that's true. There couldn't be a God (in the Yahweh/Christ/Allah sense). Not possible.

I'm not particularly inclined to argue with you. But in any case I don't hate you.

I just don't believe what you do ... I'm sure my family could get on with yours, our children could go to the same schools, we'd hardly mention our differences if we met ...

My belief in the impossibility of a God is just a part of what I think. Once it might have caused me to be burnt or beheaded, but nowadays I know I can be friends with people who believe a God is possible, even actual.

If only gender believers could be like that!