Believing in gender is a bit like believing in God

[Flowerypot]

New to this forum so apologies if I'm wording things clumsily.

I've been thinking about how to articulate how I feel about sex/gender without explicitly saying trans women aren't women, women don't have a penis etc. Lots of stuff has come up at work on this recently and we're a very 'be kind' organisation - lots of pride stuff, trans colleagues, colleagues with trans kids talking openly about that.

Does anyone else feel about gender how they feel about believing in God or religion? It's a concept not rooted in scientific fact - it's just something people believe in, right? And you can respect that but no religious beliefs trump protected characteristics etc

For example at work they're encouraging us to state our gender as well as race/ethnicity and there is no option to state 'none' like there would be with religion and I think there should be. The best option is 'other' but that doesn't really work for me.

Not sure what I'm asking really. Grateful for any thoughts!

@PurpleBugz

so much of what you have written resonates with me, including the necessity as a Christian to ‘turn the other cheek’ when our faith is mocked or insulted (although it is interesting how seldom the mockers have a go at one of the other monotheistic religions practiced by a substantial minority in this country, can’t imagine why).

I was about to say, though, that I think the big difference between believing in a God, and believing in gender ideology, is that believers in God are believing in a force or entity outside themselves, outside (above) humanity. I don’t think that gender ideology has any existence outside the human mind , expressed only as a human body .

I haven’t articulated that very well.

@PurpleBugz @Allthegoodnamesarechosen agree with both of you

No one is really a person without a belief system.

Everyone has a sense of how they understand reality to function, what they think is real or not, how they think reason works, how we can know, what they think it means to be human, what is good and evil, or if they are meaningless words, what makes a good life, and what is it that holds all these ideas together.

I would say that the problem is that now, because so many people think they don't have a belief system, what they really have is a lot of incoherent bits and pieces of ideas that come from their intuition, or pop culture, their family and upbringing.

Since they don't really fit together well, or because there is no defined structure, they are very vulnerable to bad arguments and faddish ideas. People are always looking for some kind of structure that seems to hold it all together, often without realizing that's what they are doing. And since they don't realize, they don't ask the right questions.

@SammyScrounge and @Rudderneck very interesting points.

Adding to that, the sheer amount of information we're bombarded with these days. Our brains are wired to process and make sense of it all at the pace at which it's arriving. Pre-social media and internet, your frame of reference was your local community and what you read in the papers or saw on the daily news.

If we can't assimilate and make sense of information and there is a predisposition to want a belief in something, that's a recipe for people being drawn in to a belief that is shouting loudly enough.

@PurpleBugz and @Allthegoodnamesarechosen your points about religion being about a higher being contrasting with the inward-facing gender identity make a lot of sense. In that respect religion and gender identity belief definitely differ.
I guess no analogy is perfect. I will add that to my mental list of "except fors" when I use the comparison.

@NotMyBagButCrackOn I know the video you mean with the middle aged man and the books in the background. They were each sitting on either end of a sofa. Thank you! I don't remember that bit at all so I'll find it again and rewatch it.

If anyone is interested in the video I mentioned where a philosopher examines whether gender identity is fact or belief, I've found it and put the link below. I found it really helpful to make sense of the thoughts I was having when I couldn't get my head around it all.

talking about gender identity

*our brains aren't wired

I know the video you mean with the middle aged man and the books in the background. They were each sitting on either end of a sofa. Thank you! I don't remember that bit at all so I'll find it again and rewatch it.

@BonfireLady how funny that you recognized that vague description!
Glad that I was able to help!

Yes, but I believe that applies to many if not most religious people, too! We all tend to embody contradictions and misunderstandings. Human psyche is quite a muddled thing, on the whole. Maybe that's me projecting...

What do you think women have spent the past few years doing?!

Anyway, would be great to hear ideas for more effective and useful specific actions for women to take. Have at it!

Frankly, no.

Even the judiciary, well-known for its habit of pandering to recent identity politics, largely isn't able to support them because legal precedent denies them that liberty. The law is the law, not the law according to Stonewall and its arrogant presumption of being able to rewrite that law as it sees fit.

It should be pointed out that Allison Bailey, Maya Forstater and the LGB Alliance all won their legal cases within the same week. Prior to this, Freddie McConnell was unable to overturn the essential legal precedent that 'the rights of the child shall be paramount', when attempting to get that child's birth certificate rewritten in such a way as affirms Freddie's 'identity'. No court in this land could ever have found in favour of this - imagine the Pandora's box this would open?

The law of this land is overwhelmingly of the stance that sex is a discrete category from 'gender', and that sex matters.

Labour are a worry, but even they are being forced to roll back from their fantasy stance because they know they're onto a vote loser. Whether you trust them or not is another matter, but that's the current position. No doubt they saw what happened to Nicola Sturgeon and Penny Mordaunt, and are worried.

The onus isn't on women to 'do something different' in any case. We have enough battles of our own, don't you think? We are not human shields, and we are not support vessels who exist on this planet to pander to the whims of men.

But focusing discussion on where there is evidence harm to women due to trans ideology might be better.

What the fuck do you think women have been doing for years? Keep Prisons Single Sex, the work done by Stephanie Davis Arai/Transgender Trend regarding schools, Karen Ingala Smith regarding domestic violence shelters and rape crisis centres, Sharron Davis and Martina Navaratilova regarding sports? We have been highlighting and pointing out the harms to women ad nauseum for years.

And what is the answer they/we are/were getting but transwomen are women on repeat. I ask again how are you suggesting we can exclude transwomen from single sex women only spaces and services whilst simultaneously saying that transwomen are women? The second you concede on that fundamental lie is the second you cannot exclude transwomen from anything relating to women.

Transwomen are not women that underpins the whole argument, they are male, they are transwomen, they are not and never will be women.

Transwomen are not women that underpins the whole argument, they are male, they are transwomen, they are not and never will be women.

Personally I take it in two stages.
I say that transwomen are transwomen. If pushed on that eventually I'll say that "of course I know they are men but I'm being sensitive to the fact that they don't believe they are". Back to point the analogy still holding... As an atheist of course I believe that God doesn't exist but instead I say I don't believe in God. I'm acknowledging that someone else has a different belief to me.
But I'm not going to support any laws etc that relate to a belief. I can still challenge all of that by saying that transwomen are transwomen. They most certainly aren't women.

Many people genuinely think that a man can 'change sex' and become a woman.

This fundamental absurdity has to be challenged.

That particular tenet is a lot like transubstantiation, I think, or it seems that way to me. A requirement to have faith in something we know and understnad to be impossible.

(I mean absolutely no disrespect to Christians, here, I'm just looking at that specific belief - and that's how I understand it - as a kind of declaration of faith. As I understand it, faith, by definition, requires belief without proof.)

And to clarify, I'm not saying that belief in transubstantiation is an absurdity - I take that to be a sort of philosophical ritual, whereas TWAW is a statement of faith that is being used to create laws and societal rules.

Yes, I guess it would get interesting if those that did believe that the wine had literally become the blood of Christ then insisted it was given to toddlers because it was no longer alcoholic.
At some point, someone would take the transubstantiation believer aside and either a) find a way to explain metaphors (while accepting that the person does still hold a belief) or b) state that not everyone shares that belief so the default approach is that, just to be cautious, no wine is given to toddlers.
By contrast, the metaphor that trans women are women is being embraced by people (e.g. "trans allies" being kind, bad apple transwomen who see an easy way in) who know it's a metaphor and passed on as true to vulnerable children and adults who end up thinking its literal. The power of belief to make something "real".

"And what is the answer they/we are/were getting but transwomen are womenon repeat. I ask again how areyousuggesting we can exclude transwomen from single sex women only spaces and services whilst simultaneously saying that transwomen are women? The second you concede on that fundamental lie is the second you cannot exclude transwomen from anything relating to women."

Yes, I think there needs to be a response along the lines, "trans activists are making crazy false claims about identity, to then demand "rights" off the back of the false identity claims".

If they can't defend the original claim about identity, then you shouldn't be trusting their claims about "trans rights".

Let’s translate some common trans activist claims into this analogy:

Atheism isn’t a belief system worthy of respect, it’s merely anti-Christian hatred.

Expressing atheist views is hate speech and deeply hurtful to Christians.

It’s wrong to platform atheists. Their views are not worthy of respect in a civilised society.

Everyone should wear a cross in order to be kind and inclusive.

Atheism is ignoring the lived experience of Christians.

Atheists don’t believe that Christians exist.

Atheists want to eliminate Christians.

Let’s call atheists what they really are, “anti-Christian bigots”.

Christian allies need to condemn atheism whenever they see or hear it. Staying silent is not OK.

Very well written. I had to go back and read through it all several times to take it all in.

Personal favourite:
Everyone should wear a cross in order to be kind and inclusive

I'm comfortable with my position on pronouns and I know it's very different to many other people on this board...

If I translate my position back to your example it becomes this:

I have chosen to wear a cross of my own free will to make you feel more comfortable in our conversation. Something seems to have got lost in translation here because now I'm being told by my work that I need to wear a cross at all times because if I don't I'm making Christians feel invalid. I'm still going to wear my cross when I'm talking to you to make our conversation flow more easily for you because I can see you're quite fragile and are going to take it really personally* if I don't but I'll be taking it off the rest of the time. There is no way I'm wearing it as part of some msndated rule, sod that. And if it's really really important when I'm talking about you, e.g. you have used your cross to enter an event that you shouldn't, I'll be making it very clear that the only reason I was wearing a cross in the first place was to be kind and that I never believed in any of it.

*Obviously this is one of the places where the analogy differs significantly. No real Christian needs my affirmation to make their faith "valid", as per comments above. Even though it had to be bent to fit, it's still works for the purposes of illustration.

Such an interesting and thought inspiring notion. I’ve never really thought about gender being something I can have a choice about but religion I can. I respect any choice someone makes about their beliefs although I don’t believe the same however I don’t feel the same way about gender identity. Maybe I need to adjust my perspective but I feel that it is my choice to choose my beliefs based upon what I see

Perhaps also...

"Punch an atheist"

Indeed!

Also just to add re my cross wearing/pronoun translation. I don't put pronouns next to my name and I never will. Technically that would be what is meant by me wearing a cross to fit the analogy properly. Instead I used it to illustrate that I'll use someone's preferred pronouns in certain situations (never a child, never when it's important.to clarify something).
I call our local vicar Reverend [insert first name]. Everyone does in our village. I choose to do so to show a respect for her religion even though I don't share it. It's the mandating of a belief that is wrong, whether that's religion or gender identity.

Transwomen are not women that underpins the whole argument, they are male, they are transwomen, they are not and never will be women.

This. They are not women, there is zero reason to believe that any man who says "I'm a woman" actually is one for practical purposes.

Yes, I think there needs to be a response along the lines, "trans activists are making crazy false claims about identity, to then demand "rights" off the back of the false identity claims".

If they can't defend the original claim about identity, then you shouldn't be trusting their claims about "trans rights".

Exactly.

I'm very much trans women are women when it comes to day to day life.

But that literally means you think any man who at any time declares himself to be a woman, is one, for all practical purposes. Regardless of the safety, privacy and dignity of women and girls. Is that really what you believe, because it's a bit odd? Or do you have some sort of gatekeeping.