Page 4 | Lesbian mothers should be on birth certificates

SapphosRock · 2023-07-21T10:16:45+00:00

Great article from Kathleen Stock. https://unherd.com/2023/07/lesbian-mothers-should-be-on-birth-certificates/ It is surprising to me that anyone who supports women's rights would oppose lesbian parents having equal rights to straight parents. From the article: Naming a second lesbian parent on a child’s birth certificate is a family-friendly move. Arguably, if you squint a bit, it’s even a socially conservative move — though agreeing probably depends on whether you take, as your baseline, a society where lesbians will have children anyway; or whether you think of it as a cultural aberration that could, with discouragement, be stopped. Either way, putting a second lesbian partner on a birth certificate officially defines and legitimises her parenting relation within the family, allowing the burdens and joys to be shared between two adults, and adding a second layer of protection for the child. Family stability is important for good childhood outcomes, and this measure seems to provide some.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/07/2023 13:17

stargirl1701 · Today 11:18
I think it might be time to alter the existing birth certificate or move to a 2 cert system - one that records biological data and one that records parental data.

I agree.

ScrollingLeaves · 21/07/2023 13:28

Inamuddle36 · Today 13:01

What if the “woman” who gives birth is a transman and wishes to be noted as the “father”?

That would be a lie her child could do without.

The mother should be recorded as the biological mother.

Then only after that as the “father” socially speaking.

BiddyBee · 21/07/2023 13:29

RainbowUtensils · 21/07/2023 11:55

I'm donor conceived and I agree with this. I didn't realise lesbian parents had the sperm donors details recorded separately - how does that work?

My birth certificate is effectively a lie, as my dad's name is on it and he's not my biological father, but as my parents are heterosexual there's no question about it. There should be.

Biological certificate and legal parent certificate all the way.

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The voice of the donor conceived child is the only one I'm interested in tbh, and I can see how it must be hard to live with not knowing. Two certificates would be my choice, one with the biological reality and one for those with parental responsibility.

Original poster

SapphosRock · 21/07/2023 13:29

Fantastic post @mumarooni and I know that is exactly how my wife feels about our kids.

I hope the spiteful comments haven't upset you

OP posts:

BoobyDazzler · 21/07/2023 13:31

Legal documents should be factual. A child can not biologically have two mothers.

IceCreamQueen86 · 21/07/2023 13:32

SapphosRock · 21/07/2023 12:17

Do you think that where a sperm donor has been used in a heterosexual relationship that the women's husband/partner should not be on their child's birth certificate? Should that man have to adopt the child?

Excellent question. I haven't seen anyone complaining about inaccurate birth certificates in this scenario.

Maybe you should try reading your own thread then! A poster has already brought this up - she is the child in this situation - and has said that she doesn’t think this should happening.

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:32

BoobyDazzler · 21/07/2023 13:31

Legal documents should be factual. A child can not biologically have two mothers.

Let's not border on homophobia.

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:34

BiddyBee · 21/07/2023 13:29

The voice of the donor conceived child is the only one I'm interested in tbh, and I can see how it must be hard to live with not knowing. Two certificates would be my choice, one with the biological reality and one for those with parental responsibility.

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Nice to know that you only care about one aspect of society and not parents.

Jusr because that PP feels like that doesnt make it right.

BoobyDazzler · 21/07/2023 13:34

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:32

Let's not border on homophobia.

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There is absolutely nothing remotely homophobic about what I wrote.

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:36

BoobyDazzler · 21/07/2023 13:34

There is absolutely nothing remotely homophobic about what I wrote.

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Tell that to the many two women who have a child. I'm sure they'd be really interested in your legal facts and it wouldnt be hurtful at all.

My adopted father is not mu biological dad but he is my dad in every sense of the word. I assume you go round telling adoptive fathers it is biologically impossible to have two sets of parents, or do you save your sneering for gay women?

mumarooni · 21/07/2023 13:36

Robinbuildsbears · 21/07/2023 13:05

All I'm hearing in your block of text is "me me me". This is about the rights of the child, not the feelings of the adults around them.

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Yes, it is about their right to have the most important people in their life, their parents, legally recognised?! This is about protecting their security, their claims for connection to the people who brought them into the world, who bare responsibility for them as children (unless deemed unworthy) and who are recorded as kin for the rest of their lives, to be called if they go into hospital, to be recorded as heritage when learning their roots, to be next of kin for their own children in the future and so on. The birth certificate is part of a safety net for them. Their rights to know about and access the sperm donor are also important but a separate matter, they do not and should not council out their need for legal legitimisation that they can count on society to protect my place in their life. Are your feelings for your children all 'me me me'?! I doubt my feelings to protect my children are any different whatsoever from yours. I could take the ignorant judgement that I am being selfish here and ignore it, but my concern is that our family stability, their needs, relies on people like you being willing to think differently.

SliceOfCakeCupOfTea · 21/07/2023 13:40

Nature and nurture both matter and therefore I believe biological and non-biological parents should be recorded and their role ie Joe Bloggs, sperm donor. Jill blaggs, birth mother, Jane blaggs, mother etc

Original poster

SapphosRock · 21/07/2023 13:41

I agree with the donor conceived poster that legal parental rights and sperm donor details should all be recorded.

The problem is that birth certificates don't record all that info. They do record who has parental rights over the child.

@RainbowUtensils I don't want to speak for you but I assume you are happy for the man who brought you up to have parental rights? And you would not welcome the sperm donor being your legal parent?

OP posts:

ScrollingLeaves · 21/07/2023 13:43

mumarooni · Today 12:55

“Robinbuildsbears”· Today 11:59

“Then they should adopt. My dad is my step father who adopted me. It's insulting to place the the non biological "parent" as equal to the mother who carried and birthed the child just because they aren't heterosexual. They are nothing to do with the baby until they make the commitment to adopt them”.

It is also insulting to suggest the non-biological mother is nothing to do with the baby unless she adopts him/her.
I was my babies' mother before they were even conceived. I planned for them, yearned for them, I selected the sperm donor, I did everything I could to care for their biological mother and support our family unit, they literally would not be the people they are without me, and I would not be who I am without them. I don't detract at all from the incredible thing that my wife did in growing and birthing our babies, but I am not some legalistic add-on, or step parent taking on 'someone else's' children, and this is not about validating me and my feelings, this is about one half of their adult family unit, this is about their security. I would willingly adopt them, but I shouldn't have to, they are mine as much as I am theirs, through and through, to our core. I am on their birth certificate as a register of the fact we knowingly brought them into the world within our civil partnership, which makes me a parent from their inception, with a sort of responsibility and connection that is lifelong. Not being on their birth certificate is a terrifying prospect. What if something happened to their other mother? When one of our babies was born, my wife had a terrible bleed. She began to lose consciousness and an emergency team tried to stem the bleeding. All the while I held our son close to me to keep him warm, watching in horror. At the moment, I am legally and in every way next of kin. Because we were in a civil partnership, and because of current birth certificate laws, I did not even have to worry about where he would legally go should the worst have happened to her. Going forward, for my kids to have a secure life, it is important to me that they see that society recognises that I am their parent and will protect that. I am here for them always and unrefutably. I am frightened that this is being destabilised because fears about gender identity are causing people to pull back progress and delegitimise families like mine.

What you write is very moving and makes sense but for the child the birth certificate should be clear. There could be a pre-birth adoption, or understanding built into a marriage or civil partnership, but the birth certificate still needs to be clear about which mother gave birth.

IceCreamQueen86 · 21/07/2023 13:44

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:36

Tell that to the many two women who have a child. I'm sure they'd be really interested in your legal facts and it wouldnt be hurtful at all.

My adopted father is not mu biological dad but he is my dad in every sense of the word. I assume you go round telling adoptive fathers it is biologically impossible to have two sets of parents, or do you save your sneering for gay women?

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Before going off on a rant and accusing people of homophobia, maybe you should re-read what that poster actually wrote - she said a child cannot have two BIOLOGICAL mothers, not that they can’t have two mothers at all.

Accusing someone of homophobia because you don’t like biological facts is no different to what trans activists are doing.

Robinbuildsbears · 21/07/2023 13:44

mumarooni · 21/07/2023 13:36

Yes, it is about their right to have the most important people in their life, their parents, legally recognised?! This is about protecting their security, their claims for connection to the people who brought them into the world, who bare responsibility for them as children (unless deemed unworthy) and who are recorded as kin for the rest of their lives, to be called if they go into hospital, to be recorded as heritage when learning their roots, to be next of kin for their own children in the future and so on. The birth certificate is part of a safety net for them. Their rights to know about and access the sperm donor are also important but a separate matter, they do not and should not council out their need for legal legitimisation that they can count on society to protect my place in their life. Are your feelings for your children all 'me me me'?! I doubt my feelings to protect my children are any different whatsoever from yours. I could take the ignorant judgement that I am being selfish here and ignore it, but my concern is that our family stability, their needs, relies on people like you being willing to think differently.

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All of the issues you raise about family stability can be solved with adoption, I don't understand why you think you should be above that. Also "recorded as heritage when learning their roots", really? You don't see how you're contradicting yourself here?

onlytherain · 21/07/2023 13:45

@PuttingDownRoots The point of birth certificates is not to show legal parenthood. Otherwise they would name adoptive parents, which they don't.

Adopted children have their original birth certificates naming their biological parents, a new birth certificate naming no parents at all and a "certificate of an entry" into the adoption register which names the adoptive (legal) parents. By that logic, birth certificates do not show legal parenthood.

I think everyone should get two documents:

a certificate naming the biological parents and
a second naming the legal parents.

Everyone should have to show the legal parenthood certificate in all relevant situations; the biological one should be a private document for children, so they know who their biological parents are.

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:48

mumarooni · 21/07/2023 13:36

Yes, it is about their right to have the most important people in their life, their parents, legally recognised?! This is about protecting their security, their claims for connection to the people who brought them into the world, who bare responsibility for them as children (unless deemed unworthy) and who are recorded as kin for the rest of their lives, to be called if they go into hospital, to be recorded as heritage when learning their roots, to be next of kin for their own children in the future and so on. The birth certificate is part of a safety net for them. Their rights to know about and access the sperm donor are also important but a separate matter, they do not and should not council out their need for legal legitimisation that they can count on society to protect my place in their life. Are your feelings for your children all 'me me me'?! I doubt my feelings to protect my children are any different whatsoever from yours. I could take the ignorant judgement that I am being selfish here and ignore it, but my concern is that our family stability, their needs, relies on people like you being willing to think differently.

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A dignified post amongst some real spite. Well done you x

mumarooni · 21/07/2023 13:49

ScrollingLeaves · 21/07/2023 13:43

mumarooni · Today 12:55

“Robinbuildsbears”· Today 11:59

“Then they should adopt. My dad is my step father who adopted me. It's insulting to place the the non biological "parent" as equal to the mother who carried and birthed the child just because they aren't heterosexual. They are nothing to do with the baby until they make the commitment to adopt them”.

It is also insulting to suggest the non-biological mother is nothing to do with the baby unless she adopts him/her.
I was my babies' mother before they were even conceived. I planned for them, yearned for them, I selected the sperm donor, I did everything I could to care for their biological mother and support our family unit, they literally would not be the people they are without me, and I would not be who I am without them. I don't detract at all from the incredible thing that my wife did in growing and birthing our babies, but I am not some legalistic add-on, or step parent taking on 'someone else's' children, and this is not about validating me and my feelings, this is about one half of their adult family unit, this is about their security. I would willingly adopt them, but I shouldn't have to, they are mine as much as I am theirs, through and through, to our core. I am on their birth certificate as a register of the fact we knowingly brought them into the world within our civil partnership, which makes me a parent from their inception, with a sort of responsibility and connection that is lifelong. Not being on their birth certificate is a terrifying prospect. What if something happened to their other mother? When one of our babies was born, my wife had a terrible bleed. She began to lose consciousness and an emergency team tried to stem the bleeding. All the while I held our son close to me to keep him warm, watching in horror. At the moment, I am legally and in every way next of kin. Because we were in a civil partnership, and because of current birth certificate laws, I did not even have to worry about where he would legally go should the worst have happened to her. Going forward, for my kids to have a secure life, it is important to me that they see that society recognises that I am their parent and will protect that. I am here for them always and unrefutably. I am frightened that this is being destabilised because fears about gender identity are causing people to pull back progress and delegitimise families like mine.

What you write is very moving and makes sense but for the child the birth certificate should be clear. There could be a pre-birth adoption, or understanding built into a marriage or civil partnership, but the birth certificate still needs to be clear about which mother gave birth.

Re the birth certificate recording which mother gave birth.

I agree, and it currently does.

In fact, I am recorded as 'parent 2' on our children's birth certificate, not as mother at all. Different families may disagree with me on this, but I am OK with that, as long as I am there, so that I can count on society to allow them to count on me. Personally I also wouldn't mind other details of conception/biological facts being included - but I am aware there are a lot of reasons in other families why that is not so easy iether (children conceived from abusive sexual relationships, unknown parentage, risks to mother of recording that information, etc).

IceCreamQueen86 · 21/07/2023 13:50

mumarooni · 21/07/2023 13:36

Yes, it is about their right to have the most important people in their life, their parents, legally recognised?! This is about protecting their security, their claims for connection to the people who brought them into the world, who bare responsibility for them as children (unless deemed unworthy) and who are recorded as kin for the rest of their lives, to be called if they go into hospital, to be recorded as heritage when learning their roots, to be next of kin for their own children in the future and so on. The birth certificate is part of a safety net for them. Their rights to know about and access the sperm donor are also important but a separate matter, they do not and should not council out their need for legal legitimisation that they can count on society to protect my place in their life. Are your feelings for your children all 'me me me'?! I doubt my feelings to protect my children are any different whatsoever from yours. I could take the ignorant judgement that I am being selfish here and ignore it, but my concern is that our family stability, their needs, relies on people like you being willing to think differently.

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Yes that’s why adoption certificates exist & would solve all the problems you mention
to be recorded as heritage when learning their roots - er… do you not see the irony here?

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:51

IceCreamQueen86 · 21/07/2023 13:50

Yes that’s why adoption certificates exist & would solve all the problems you mention
to be recorded as heritage when learning their roots - er… do you not see the irony here?

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The bullying of this particular PP is completely uncalled for.

Hannahsbananas · 21/07/2023 13:53

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:51

The bullying of this particular PP is completely uncalled for.

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Bullying? Please stop it, you know that’s nonsense.

Hannahsbananas · 21/07/2023 13:55

to be recorded as heritage when learning their roots - er… do you not see the irony here?

Yeah 🤦‍♀️

WildUnchartedWaters · 21/07/2023 13:55

Hannahsbananas · 21/07/2023 13:53

Bullying? Please stop it, you know that’s nonsense.

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Repeatedly jumping on her posts with statements when she has been very open and raw
Okay. Il change it for just being nasty.

RainbowUtensils · 21/07/2023 13:58

SapphosRock · 21/07/2023 13:41

I agree with the donor conceived poster that legal parental rights and sperm donor details should all be recorded.

The problem is that birth certificates don't record all that info. They do record who has parental rights over the child.

@RainbowUtensils I don't want to speak for you but I assume you are happy for the man who brought you up to have parental rights? And you would not welcome the sperm donor being your legal parent?

Yes, totally. My Dad (the man who planned the pregnancy with my mum and brought me up) will always be my dad. And I love him and am so proud to call him my dad.

My biological father (whoever he may be) is not a parental figure to me, but he is absolutely part of who I am, and I think that needs to be recognised. I'm speaking from the perspective of someone conceived pre-1991, so I'm unlikely to ever find my biological father, and I find it incredibly hard not knowing anything about half of my heritage, even more so since having my own children. My boys, especially my second, look like someone I have never met, seen a picture of, or have any idea about. It's a strange feeling, and one that I think is about the human need to feel connected to your "tribe", and in evolutionary terms, those connections are biological. It's a longing that will never go away, and is entirely unrelated to the relationship I have with my brilliant Dad.