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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

536 replies

Igneococcus · 19/07/2023 06:02

Sorry can't do sharetoken on this device, I'll do one later if nobody else posts one.
Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told (thetimes.co.uk)

What an utter mess this all is.

"Prentis said that a blanket ban would be unlawful because the Equalities Act states that gender reassignment is a “protected characteristic”, regardless of age. She gave the same advice when ministers asked whether there could be a ban on social transitioning for primary school children."

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

Rishi Sunak is expected to delay issuing transgender guidance for schools after the attorney-general and government lawyers warned that plans to strengthen it w

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-gender-guidance-schools-uk-pupils-pronouns-transition-2023-3w6qdskpc

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
HipTightOnions · 19/07/2023 20:25

But for those doing the actual work of the language of the GRA and EA would not have been thinking as those pressure groups were.

What do you think the authors did mean by "other attributes"?

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 20:25

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 20:15

Until Stonewall jumped on the bandwagon of "trans" as this ever expanding umbrella (mainly about people not conforming to social norms and nothing whatsoever to do gender reassignment ie surgery) no one would have thought anything in the EA or the GRA had anything to do with young people experimenting with how they want to present themselves.

Organisations like Press for Change and GIRES were working on expanding the trans umbrella well before the EA was passed, and even before the GRA (I think Press for Change were one of the groups that helped get the GRA through).

Have a look at this thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

I quoted from Press for Change earlier about the change to the language. They said they'd been working on this change of language since 1996. The bit I quoted earlier was from 2007, well before Stonewall got involved.

Fascinating thread. I'm a sucker for nostalgia, but little did I think there was so much pre-history in this movement.

It looks like the 2004 GRA is the Big Bang movement, and the silence around it betrays the "in space, noone can hear you scream" tagline.

I can honestly say I have no recollection. Tony Blair was obviously setting up his legacy socially, knowing he was soon to stand down after the 2005 GE the following year...and what a legacy to leave.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/07/2023 20:28

ValancyRedfern · 19/07/2023 19:43

Thanks Arabella. I think this is what I was thinking of. It is not at all as simple as schools misinterpreting the EqA and the DfE guidance. The issues and ambiguities are in the EqA and were there from the start.

This guidance heavily promoted Stonewall & either GIRES or Gendered Intelligence to schools with direct links to them. Early versions also signposted the paedophile scandal hit Mermaids if I recall correctly. Signposts to other protected characteristics were all government websites, not profit making queer theory groups.

These organisations literally got free advertising courtesy of the DfE. Of course schools will uncritically abandon safeguarding children when the DfE tells them these groups are the experts (despite their complete lack of professional knowledge of child psychology, development, education & safeguarding).

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 20:29

It does seem the GRA unleashed all this

The big problem is it’s so hard to fix but dissent makes our society worse because it brings more clamping down

Other countries have just conceded haven’t they

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 20:44

It is worth reading through Hansard to understand just how broad the PC of gender reassignment was intended to be.

Lots of examples out there, for example:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmpublic/equality/090611/pm/90611s04.htm

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 20:51

Just as it is possible to see how the deliberate attempt to try and make sex and gender mean the same thing, it is possible to see how the distortion of language seems to have made even posters on FWR accept that gender reassignment (the protect characteristic) is the same as socially transitioning.

Who do you think the pc of gender reassignment covers? It's quite clear from the wording that it covers anyone from the moment they declare an intention to 'transition'

1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

And they don't have to be proposing a physiological transition. It can just be a declaration that they want to live as the opposite sex (whatever that means), but make no changes to their body. Or do you have some other interpretation of what they mean by 'other attributes of sex' which are not physiological?

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 20:55

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 20:29

It does seem the GRA unleashed all this

The big problem is it’s so hard to fix but dissent makes our society worse because it brings more clamping down

Other countries have just conceded haven’t they

Just how do you think a call to reform/scrap the GRA would go down in the media?

Those proposing it would be scandalised as bigots, transphobes, homophobes.

There would be an onslaught of resistance from Stonewall, other charities, the legal profession, the Church, scientists and academics.

I suspect scrapping it wouldn't be compatible with the ECHR and the agreement we have with the EU that Johnson negotiated.

Hell, I can even imagine Uncle Joe having something to say.

And it looks like there's absolutely no appetite from the current Tory govt to go near it, and the opposition parties would only add to it.

Did I hear Starmer say one of his aims was to "modernise" the GRA?

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 21:08

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 20:55

Just how do you think a call to reform/scrap the GRA would go down in the media?

Those proposing it would be scandalised as bigots, transphobes, homophobes.

There would be an onslaught of resistance from Stonewall, other charities, the legal profession, the Church, scientists and academics.

I suspect scrapping it wouldn't be compatible with the ECHR and the agreement we have with the EU that Johnson negotiated.

Hell, I can even imagine Uncle Joe having something to say.

And it looks like there's absolutely no appetite from the current Tory govt to go near it, and the opposition parties would only add to it.

Did I hear Starmer say one of his aims was to "modernise" the GRA?

Who knows. The alternative is worse though

Look at what men are doing to women who speak up. Sanctioned violence. Speaking out is not going away as much as some want it to.

On Starmer a poster on another thread pointed out he claimed self ID didn’t go far enough

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 21:09

And they don't have to be proposing a physiological transition. It can just be a declaration that they want to live as the opposite sex (whatever that means), but make no changes to their body. Or do you have some other interpretation of what they mean by 'other attributes of sex' which are not physiological?

Exactly OldCrone - posters really need to read through the debates from the time. It is clear that gender reassignment was meant to cover as wide an umbrella (including the under 18s) as possible. Unfortunately, only a tiny number of MPs realised the potential impacts of such a broad umbrella and they were ignored/dismissed.

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 21:24

On Starmer a poster on another thread pointed out he claimed self ID didn’t go far enough

When did he say this? Do you have a link?

ArabeIIaScott · 19/07/2023 21:33

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/07/2023 18:54

Good thread on twitter about this
https://twitter.com/michaelpforan/status/1681619724034080770?t=R1R4W8A1trJ03CcXLyt-Eg&s=19

First some background. The Equality Act covers a list of protected characteristics. Gender reassignment is one of them. It’s not tied to the Gender Recognition Act, you don’t need to be in the process of obtains a GRC to be protected and it almost certainly covers minors.

This means that children who are experiencing gender distress are likely protected from gender reassignment based discrimination. There is a lot of confusion and misinformation about what being protected under GR means and this is likely affecting how guidance is being drafted.

Some advocates argue it means you are entitled to be treated as if you were the sex you identify with unless the policy passes a proportionality test. That’s incorrect. If you’re protected under gender reassignment you’re entitled not to be discriminated against on that ground.

The test for determining discrimination is called a comparator test: whether you would be treated less favourably than another person who is identical in all relevant respects except the protected characteristic in question.

We know from Green v Secretary of State for Justice that if you don’t have a GRC (no children have GRCs) your sex is your biological sex. So a trans boy is female for the purposes of the Equality Act. The comparator then is a girl without gender reassignment.

This is very important. It means that you need to ask whether other females would be required to wear the girls uniform or be referred to by she/her pronouns. They would be, so it’s not direct discrimination. Where this gets complicated is indirect discrimination.

Indirect discrimination occurs where persons who share a protected characteristic are put at a particular disadvantage and where there is no legal justification for doing so. I’ll return to that later.

So, continuing the background. Being protected under gender reassignment doesn’t entitle you to be treated as the sex one identifies with. But some very prominent advocacy groups have argued that it does. This has led to a lot of confusion.

Added to that, some have argued that the structure of the Equality Act is the reverse of what it actually is. The default is equal treatment. There are then exceptions built in that reverse this presumption in order to allow for single sex services, associations and schools.

But there is an exception to the exception which says in very rare circumstances, it may be disproportionate to have a single sex service - for example a men’s only barbers that refuses to cut the hair of a short haired woman.

So here’s the structure:

  1. In general equal treatment
  2. Some areas where presumption is revered to (in general) unequal treatment to allow single sex services
  3. In very rare cases, an exception to the exception.

But some have argued very persistently the exact opposite.

Some have argued that Gender Reassignment means you’ve a right to be treated as if you had changed sex when you haven’t and they have argued that 3 (The exception to the exception) is actually the norm: that it’s the default when it isn’t. This has caused so much confusion.

So anyone drafting guidance for schools is going to be cognisant of the fact that if you say ‘X is the general rule but in very rare circumstances Y can be done’ there will likely be a concerted effort to make Y the general rule when it is suppose to be the exception.

I suspect the guidance has tried to avoid this because it wants to provide guidance and not add to more confusion. Add to this the fact the Cass report has indicated that social transition is a medical intervention that should be carefully considered before any action is taken.

Against that backdrop the guidance likely sought to provide clear rules with no exceptions. The problem is that rules without exceptions run into problems with proportionality and proportionality is triggered if a policy has a particular impact upon kids who share a PC.

So there’s an issue of indirect discrimination and a question of justification for blanket rules. It’s not impossible for them to be justified as proportionate, blanket rules have been proportionate.

But the fact a rule has no exception is very likely a black mark against it in proportionality analysis. And this is probably what the legal advice from the Attorney General concluded.

So there will either be new advice issued that tires to make it clear that the exceptional case really is the exceptional case and not the norm, or legislation will be introduced to make it clear that schools can have blanket rules here.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1681619724034080770.html

Thanks for sharing that, I'd not been able to read it due to Twitter's latest huff.

As so often, my over riding feeling is that legislation SO COMPLEX that even specialist legal experts can't agree on the fine points is absolutely worse than bloody useless to those who need to implement it (schools, employers, etc).

Hepwo · 19/07/2023 21:42

What we have seen happen is a classic example of "build and they will come" in law.

The approach taken by GENSPECT for example and health authorities is key to this isn't it, we know how a cross sex identity forms and more sophisticated approaches to that are the more effective than law changes.

Middle of the road people worldwide want this contagion managing better. Legal fights have been good for getting the freedom to speak the truth back slowly and that's going to be the critical dampner on the pipeline.

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 21:48

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 21:24

On Starmer a poster on another thread pointed out he claimed self ID didn’t go far enough

When did he say this? Do you have a link?

You’d have to check with the poster. I thought it might be on the canvassing thread but a quick scroll didn’t find it

Hopefully they will see this thread and can clarify

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 21:51

NHSE have already said in their new service specs that not all children who are referred to them will come under the PC of gender reassignment- they will need to be assessed first- ie you can’t do a blanket coverage for this cohort. This is based on AA & others vs NHS.

This means that as things currently stand, schools following the EHRC Technical Guidance for Schools are already out of step with the NHS. You could well have a child at school where the school is supporting their social transition but where the NHS has not yet determined in their opinion whether or not the child comes under the PC.

even further than that, as the NHS consider social transition to be a treatment which should only be supported under certain conditions, you could have that child supported in their social transition at school with the school insisting to not do so would be discrimination according to the EHRC, while there is clinical advice against the school doing so.

Its the most almighty mess.

PencilsInSpace · 19/07/2023 21:57

I agree with PP who said the important thing is to get some decent guidance out now, that complies with the law as it is now.

Stopping schools from transitioning children behind parents' backs is urgent. Making it crystal clear that schools are obliged to safeguard all children, and that is what the EA single sex exceptions are there for, is urgent. Saving girls' sport is urgent.

We can have guidance that does all of that with the law as it stands and we can do it in the time that's left for this government (18 months max). It's not perfect but it's possible. I'm not sure any change to legislation would make it through in time. We could end up with nothing.

The law still needs to change. No child is transsexual. As soon as a child is described as 'trans' they are placed outside of normal safeguarding. This must be stopped even if parents give their enthusiastic, messed-up consent.

Section 84 of the EA deals with how the Act applies in relation to schools:

84 Application of this Chapter

This Chapter does not apply to the following protected characteristics—

(a) age;
(b) marriage and civil partnership.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/84

The explanatory notes say:

This replicates the position in previous legislation and in, addition, extends protection because of gender reassignment and pregnancy and maternity to pupils in schools.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/6/1/1

So it seems clear to me that the intention was for the PC of gender reassignment to be applicable to school children. It is now clear that however well-intentioned, this is a disaster for safeguarding.

It would be straightforward to amend section 84 to:

This Chapter does not apply to the following protected characteristics—

(a) age;
(b) gender reassignment;
(c) marriage and civil partnership.

But for now, let's get the best guidance possible under the current law. Children can't wait for perfect laws because childhood is very short and they only get one shot at it.

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 22:01

Miriam Cates seemed very upbeat, saying Sunak was on it, and the delay is purely over getting the wording right to maximise the chances of the new guidance holding and not being challenged successfully.

No change is better than a bad change.

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 22:09

I completely agree Pencils Just keep it as the attorney general suggested and use “should” instead of “must” and drop the idea of a blanket ban (which needs clarification as to the exact details) for now while they sort out any legal issues to go further in the background.

Margrethe · 19/07/2023 22:10

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 19:13

This is the biggest threat to my self avowed "humanist" label. Ever since becoming an atheist as a teen and more and more a free speech champion as I've gotten older, I've always said to my friends who rail against this by, they either calling it demonic forces filling the void left by Christianity being marginalised in the West, or the atheist/uber nihilist take that the trans culture grab is the result of cultural Marxist/post modern march thru the institutions.

I've fought both opinions. Despite being hugely troubled by TRA, racialised politics and woke capitalism, I'm not moving back to Christianity anytime soon, and demons at work undermining humanity just doesn't appeal. But I can sympathise with the "chaos fills a vacuum" take.

My resistance to the theory of bad actors like Pritzker, pressure groups like Stonewall and Mermaids, activist legals like Dentons etc, plus gargantuan structure of academic post modern scaffolding for the TRA monster, pushing this edifice on relentlessly, is harder and harder to deny, especially when the quote above outlines just how hard the activists and bad actors worked, in the effective pre social media age, able to work the system pretty much unsupervised and uncontrolled, in the immediate post GRA 2004 pediod.

Once the foundations were dug and footings laid, and the superstructure was up after 2004, all that was needed was the legal/academic drive to flesh out the rules and penalties, and then social media, especially during lockdown, did the rest in creating the customers and chilling the temperature for dissenters. That we've all seen in the last 7-10 years.

However, I still feel this is too simple and sinister an explanation. Bad actors and academic intellectual firepower couldn't ever be near enough alone to create the unstoppable force we've seen rippling thru Western institutions.

It still needed a population unlikely to talk back, clever elites happy to stop questioning and eager to accept, the unique boiling pot that is social media, and the also unique suspension of people's normal tripwires and trigger points during Covid, to remove enough barriers to faster unravelling.

Where I question my humanism, is that I always railed against criticisms that humans were bad, stupid, complicit, cruel. Yes, some were. But I was also confident humans would bring it around, no need for God or conspiracy theories.

Today? I'm really struggling to positively feel a humanist, as societal change hurtles towards an unknown destination for which there are so many warning signals of. It's as if our ruling classes, academic intellectual class, our artists and media, have switched off all their skepticism, all their self questioning, all their trip wires and trigger points, to en masse bunker down, and take humanity down with them. Even that this toxicity affects children directly seems immaterial.

Either I'm still a humanist and these people who were have moved away, or it wasn't ever a label worth proudly applying to myself.

They are not Humanists.
They are Nihilists.

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 22:17

Margrethe · 19/07/2023 22:10

They are not Humanists.
They are Nihilists.

Yes, as I'm discovering. We're they ever humanists?9

Hepwo · 19/07/2023 22:20

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 21:51

NHSE have already said in their new service specs that not all children who are referred to them will come under the PC of gender reassignment- they will need to be assessed first- ie you can’t do a blanket coverage for this cohort. This is based on AA & others vs NHS.

This means that as things currently stand, schools following the EHRC Technical Guidance for Schools are already out of step with the NHS. You could well have a child at school where the school is supporting their social transition but where the NHS has not yet determined in their opinion whether or not the child comes under the PC.

even further than that, as the NHS consider social transition to be a treatment which should only be supported under certain conditions, you could have that child supported in their social transition at school with the school insisting to not do so would be discrimination according to the EHRC, while there is clinical advice against the school doing so.

Its the most almighty mess.

Schools should be giving precedence to clinical advice.

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 22:30

Well they should, but on this issue, all too often they don’t

ScrollingLeaves · 19/07/2023 22:48

LoobiJee · Today 20:05
@ScrollingLeaves

that suggests that a section about gender reassignment for school children was added to the EA in 2014? Does anyone know where it specifically adds that in the EA?”

It’s been explained at various points in this thread, but if you read my post at 19.38, it sums it up.

It’s the result of the definition of gender reassignment in EA2010 which goes wider than being in possession of a GRC and applies to all ages.

Thank you for your answer Loobijee. I had read that definition of gender reassignment in EA2010, but I had been specifically wondering
about this phrase (my bold)

Gender reassignment
3.3
Protection from discrimination because of gender reassignment in schools is new for pupils in the Equality Act, although school staff are already protected. This means that for the first time it will be unlawful for schools to treat pupils less favourably because of their gender reassignment and that schools will have to factor in gender reassignment when considering their obligations under the Equality Duty.

Now I realise I misunderstood the wording in the 2014 guidance: It did not mean some later change to the 2010 act had gone on to include school children for the first time.

It just meant the EA 2010 had introduced pregnancy and gender reassignment to discrimination legislation for the first time .

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 19/07/2023 22:54

Yes, that's how I read it - new in the original Act, not a 2014 addition. The EA was a patchwork of dozens (from memory about 90) of bits of previous anti-discrimination legislation, plus the odd new thing or extention of exiting protections to extra groups - so this was one of the things that hadn't been part of the previous Acts that were combined to form the EA.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/07/2023 23:01

PencilsInSpace · Today 21:57
The explanatory notes say:

This replicates the position in previous legislation and in, addition, extends protection because of gender reassignment and pregnancy and maternity to pupils in schools.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/6/1/1

So it seems clear to me that the intention was for the PC of gender reassignment to be applicable to school children. It is now clear that however well-intentioned, it was a disaster for safeguarding

This makes it very clear.

Equality Act 2010 - Explanatory Notes

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/6/1/1

IwantToRetire · 20/07/2023 00:08

What is it that the Attorney General thinks is unlawful? - Sex Matters
The sticking point is whether children “should be allowed to socially transition with the consent of their parents” or possibly with a doctor’s supervision. The Times states that this “social transition” means “choosing another pronoun or name and wearing the uniform of the opposite sex”.
The Times said the government commissioned legal advice from the Attorney General “into whether there could be an outright ban on social transitioning in schools”.
This is simply the wrong question.
There is no need for new legislation to allow simple clear guidance Children may have the protected characteristic of “gender reassignment” in the Equality Act, but this does not mean that children who adopt a transgender identity must be treated differently from other children. It just means that they must not be discriminated against by the school, as Section 85 of the Equality Act states:
(a) in the way it provides education for the pupil
(b) in the way it affords the pupil access to a benefit, facility or service
(c) by not providing education for the pupil
(d) by not affording the pupil access to a benefit, facility or service;
(e) by excluding the pupil from the school
(f) by subjecting the pupil to any other detriment.In other words, a child who is gender-questioning or who adopts a transgender identity should be treated in the same way as other children.
Calling a boy a boy and “he” and a girl a girl and “she” is not a detriment. Not allowing them to use opposite-sex facilities is not a detriment.

Read the full briefing from Sex Matters here https://sex-matters.org/posts/schools-and-safeguarding/why-is-the-government-getting-in-such-a-mess-over-the-schools-guidance

Why is the government getting in such a mess over the schools guidance?  - Sex Matters

It has been reported that Rishi Sunak is planning to delay issuing trans guidance for schools after the Attorney General and government lawyers warned that plans to strengthen it “would be unlawful”. What is it that the Attorney General thinks is unlaw...

https://sex-matters.org/posts/schools-and-safeguarding/why-is-the-government-getting-in-such-a-mess-over-the-schools-guidance

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