Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

[Igneococcus]

Sorry can't do sharetoken on this device, I'll do one later if nobody else posts one.
Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told (thetimes.co.uk)

What an utter mess this all is.

"Prentis said that a blanket ban would be unlawful because the Equalities Act states that gender reassignment is a “protected characteristic”, regardless of age. She gave the same advice when ministers asked whether there could be a ban on social transitioning for primary school children."

Christine Burns and Stephen Whittle explain that this was deliberate, it was all done in back rooms away from the press.

lostmytowel· Today 08:34
It seems absolutely extraordinary that legal advice says that gender reassignment is a protected characteristic for primary age children.

Have I misunderstood?

Do we think this would be because little children would be covered by “is proposing to undergo” gender reassignment if they identify as trans?

I have not read all the thread but am wondering this too. Has anyone explained on what basis it is that the legal advice says children are included in the Equality Act for Gender Reassignment?

The PC of gender reassignment absolutely applies in schools. There is nothing in the Equality Act to say it only applies to adults, and it has no connection with having a GRC. If we believe a 'trans child's a thing then it follows logically that they should be allowed to 'be' their PC in school. The EqA is a mess on this because it based a PC on an undefined fiction.

I've always said, in terms of longest lasting legacy, Blair trumps Thatcher, maybe even Churchill.
Maggie may have changed our ethos, but Blair set in motion the legalistic traps that have ensnared our whole future.
Legislation that got no media coverage at the time having mushroomed to the impotence we have today, where simple measures to enhance child safeguarding are so hamstrung by the 2003 act, as to be almost impossible to enact.
In terms of permanent change on society that reflects the leader who drove them, Blair handily beats Thatcher.
Farage gets an honourable mention.

If we follow through the logic that gender reassignment applies to all ages and the EHRC states that refusing to use a child's preferred pronouns is an example of direct discrimination with regards to this protected characteristic.....

Then any child identifying as a cat (reflexive pronoun is "catself" I think) needs affirmations as such. Presumably any teacher refusing to allow a nap under the desk or a wee in a litter tray in the corner would also be discrimating against that child cat.

And amongst the many other genders there must presumably be some other violations. What about a horse-gender identified child who isn't allowed out for a canter? A child who identifies as asexual (by definition all children until they have a feeling of sexual orientation, but let's not let details get in the way) may feel discriminated against if they are forced to learn about sex (the intercourse kind). And so on. Gender reassignment to any of the ever growing types of gender should be respected at all times...

Or....

Some common sense is used.

The law is most definitely a mess, with the words sex and gender jumbled up in both the Equality Act and the EHRC guidance on the protected characteristics of sex, gender reassignment and sexual orientation.

I'm also of the view that the guidance should come out now with "should" written in it and then we see how it all plays out. No politicians will take on the task of untangling the law until it becomes a very clear vote-impacting issue at a critical mass level. It's not there yet amongst the general public.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

It's finally dawning on lawmakers that you can't make law around people pretending to change sex.

Any child who says, however fleetingly, they are proposing to change their sex is therefore a 'transexual'? If pre verbal, I presume this is where we get the unpoppering the all-in-one thing or removing hairgrips as proof of a very young child's transexual status.

'These feelings can surface as early as the second year of life, when a girl toddler frantically pulls the fancy barrettes out of her hair or a boy toddler wraps his blanket around his head to create long, flowing hair.'

https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/we-trust-kids-know-what-gender-they-are

In which case presumably when they identify as the incredible hulk, a dinosaur and a train in the same afternoon, all that has to be formally enabled with a surgical transition planned too.

They seem blind to this even though the issues keep arising

Oh, didn't you get the memo?
The school got a clear OFSTED verdict
CatGender was a myth.
A "Dead Cat" so to speak.
According to the left commentariat, there are no gender/safeguarding issues in schools.
Just Mumsnet culture war tropes.

Is it because under Section 212 of Tge Equality Act
A man is defined as a male of any age and a woman as a female of any age ?

So a newborn baby girl counts as a woman, and a newborn baby boy as a man?

ArabeIIaScott · Today 16:12

“ScrollingLeaves” · Today 15:55

lostmtowel . Today 08:34
It seems absolutely extraordinary that legal advice says that gender reassignment is a protected characteristic for primary age children.

Have I misunderstood?

Do we think this would be because little children would be covered by “is proposing to undergo” gender reassignment if they identify as trans?

“I have not read all the thread but am wondering this too. Has anyone explained on what basis it is that the legal advice says children are included in the Equality Act for Gender Reassignment”?

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—

(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;

(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

Thank you ArabellaScott I had read that and realised that virtually anything could constitute gender reassignment but I am specifically wondering where it says children are be included?

Well, it doesn't exclude them.

I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty certain there's an example of discrimination against a school child because of gender reassignment in the EqA itself, or in a supporting document. I'll try to find it.

ArabeIIaScott · Today 16:34
Well, it doesn't exclude them.

So children are included as transsexuals, otherwise known as any person who adopts any stereotypical attribute whatsoever of the other sex - because no one thought to exclude them from the legislation?

If the government does not change the law it will be effectively be endorsing the untimely transing of children.

'Protection against discrimination is now extended to pupils who are pregnant or have recently given birth, or who are undergoing gender reassignment.'

Protected characteristics 1.9 It is unlawful for a school to discriminate against a pupil or prospective pupil by treating them less favourably because of their:  sex  race  disability  religion or belief  sexual orientation  gender reassignment  pregnancy or maternity

Gender reassignment

3.3 Protection from discrimination because of gender reassignment in schools is new for pupils in the Equality Act, although school staff are already protected. This means that for the first time it will be unlawful for schools to treat pupils less favourably because of their gender reassignment and that schools will have to factor in gender reassignment when considering their obligations under the Equality Duty.

3.4 Gender reassignment is defined in the Equality Act as applying to anyone who is undergoing, has undergone or is proposing to undergo a process (or part of a process) of reassigning their sex by changing physiological or other attributes. This definition means that in order to be protected under the Act, a pupil will not necessarily have to be undertaking a medical procedure to change their sex but must be taking steps to live in the opposite gender, or proposing to do so. A glossary of terminology related to the transgender field can be found on the Gender Identity Research and Education Society website.

3.5 The protection against discrimination because of gender reassignment now matches the protection because of sexual orientation in schools. That is protection from direct and indirect discrimination and victimisation, which includes discrimination based on perception (see 1.11) and on association (see 1.10). Schools need to make sure that all gender variant pupils, or the children of transgender parents, are not singled out for different and less favourable treatment from that given to other pupils. They should check that there are no practices which could result in unfair, less favourable treatment of such pupils. For example, it would be unlawful discrimination for a teacher to single out a 18 pupil undergoing gender reassignment and embarrass him in front of the class because of this characteristic.

3.6 It is relatively rare for pupils – particularly very young pupils – to want to undergo gender reassignment, but when a pupil does so a number of issues will arise which will need to be sensitively handled. There is evidence that the number of such cases is increasing and schools should aim to address any issues early on and in a proactive way. Further guidance is available from the GIRES website – see paragraph 2.19 for links to their bullying guidance. In addition, a partnership of bodies in Cornwall have produced a useful guidance document for schools and families'

All the above taken from 2014 DofE Guidance, I think that's the most up to date?

The Equality Act 2010 and schools Departmental advice for school leaders, school staff, governing bodies and local authorities

Spot on.

So the GRA was passed in 2004 and within 36 months of that Whittle’s campaign group had started its campaign to change the language, as the next step in their long term strategy to change public perception?

“The law is about transsexual people. Not 'trans', not 'transgender', but 'transsexual'. The effect of using the words 'trans' and 'transgender' and then declaring that children can be 'trans' has been (in the words of one TRA) to 'desexualise the trans experience'. Can we go back to using 'transsexual', and then challenge those in favour of applying the term of 'trans' to children to explain exactly what makes a child 'transsexual'.”

This is such an important and useful point OldCrone.

How many 14yo old girls, distressed at puberty, would decide to “come out” as transsexual, if that were the terminology being used? And particularly if it were the terminology associated with middle aged males wearing their wife’s or daughter’s clothes and with drag queens? They wouldn’t.

So the GRA was passed in 2004 and within 36 months of that Whittle’s campaign group had started its campaign to change the language, as the next step in their long term strategy to change public perception?

And crazy,, the same shit was going on in other western countries.

It makes you feel like the tin foil hat people might have been right all along.

I haven't had time to read all this thread, and this article was on another thread.

So I am probably repeating.

The Equality Act talks about purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

ie they are talking about physical change, nothing what so ever to do with social transitioning (that is just letting the TRA skew the discussion)

I understood you couldn't apply for or start the process of re-assignment before 18 (that is why Scotland's GRR wants to lower the age to 16 ie to start the process earlier)

I think the Government was absolutely right to get legal guidance because it is obvious that Stonewall and others would mount a legal challenge.

And they need to know what could be said to undermine what they (well some of them) want to say to schools.

None of this however will have any impact on what is going on in schools, where social campaigns and influences have led people such as teachers, let alone the children, thinking it is about "gender identity".

Its a shame that "gender identity" hasn't been treated like yet another youth cult, such as skin heads, Goths, etc.. Why have adults colluded with this "fad".

And earlier on someone said the EA was the problem. Yes it is bad, but the real problem is the GRA. Why should this one (originally a medical matter) be a protected characteristic. Because the GRA which was a temporaty solution to a problem we no longer have (same sex marriage). We need to repeal the GRA.

But we are so far down the rainbow path that the GRA has led to the concept that what for many (apart from those with genuine gender dysphoria) in the past would have been a passing trend (social transition), has now become something that has to be validated by authorities and parents.

Ironic to think that in the past adopting the then current fad for clothing, etc., was to say you dont conform to authorities and parents, but now children are desperate to get parents and schools to say that their "rebellion" isn't rebellious at all and should become the social norm.

So if this is about the EA then lets be clear it has nothing to do with social transitioning.

Althuogh I think I am right in saying that the EHRC (pre Falkner) may have allowed this concept to be taken as valid.

I've been thinking about the whole thing too. It was more or less pre-internet. Or predates anything we now recognise anyway. Long gone are the days of dial up and waiting for ages to load a page you've carefully selected (because the connection was so poor).

So the days when men and those without caring responsibilities would still definitely have had more time on their hands. More time to make long distance calls. More time to go abroad. More time to connect with other like-minded people.

And now that many of us have pretty good access to information, we are digging through what happened. What evidence there was for the GRA. What submissions were made to Parliament afterwards as just recently on this thread. What's happened elsewhere in similar timeframes.

And it is either all a massive, unconnected coincidence. Or...it isn't.

This is incorrect as the GRA recognises only male and female genders - so NB identities along with neo-gender are not protected characteristics.
GRA being written presumably with old school transsexuals in mind.

The Equality Act talks about purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex*.

ie they are talking about physical change, nothing what so ever to do with social transitioning (that is just letting the TRA skew the discussion)*

Nope. The Act is very clear that it also includes a person's 'intent' to transition.

'In the Equality Act, gender reassignment means proposing to undergo, undergoing or having undergone a process to reassign your sex. To be protected from gender reassignment discrimination, you do not need to have undergone any medical treatment or surgery to change from your birth sex to your preferred gender.'

(my bold)

Which is to say, a feeling in one's head.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/gender-reassignment-discrimination