Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

536 replies

Igneococcus · 19/07/2023 06:02

Sorry can't do sharetoken on this device, I'll do one later if nobody else posts one.
Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told (thetimes.co.uk)

What an utter mess this all is.

"Prentis said that a blanket ban would be unlawful because the Equalities Act states that gender reassignment is a “protected characteristic”, regardless of age. She gave the same advice when ministers asked whether there could be a ban on social transitioning for primary school children."

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

Rishi Sunak is expected to delay issuing transgender guidance for schools after the attorney-general and government lawyers warned that plans to strengthen it w

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-gender-guidance-schools-uk-pupils-pronouns-transition-2023-3w6qdskpc

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
PencilsInSpace · 20/07/2023 21:56

IwantToRetire · 20/07/2023 18:42

There is no such thing a social transitioning.

It is incredible that poster's on a FWR thread would use the deliberately weasel words of TRAs as though they were fact. Its like saying sex and gender are the same thing because Stonewall does.

The reference to "social transitioning" in an NHS papers and specifically says what was the "affirmative" action of "social transitiong" as part of places like the Tavistock should NO LONGER HAPPEN.

And even if they did, schools are NOT a medical establishment.

Why dont you read what are said and respond to that. Instead of just chanting the matra of TRAs.

So for the 3rd of 4th time there is no such thing as social transitioning outside of medical treatment, so why is the AG even referencing it.

If what was (but is no loger) an agreement as part of medical treatment that someone starts to live "as the other gender" this would not be a decision a teacher could take.

Stop being brainwashed by the TRA weasel words.

We know they are everywhere.

We know they infiltrated the EHRC.

Or if you dont like the way I have written it, read what sex matters says.

It amounts to the say but doesn't bother to get side tracked by TRA thought processes and mantras.

GIDS has long said that 'social transition' should not happen before they have assessed the child.

Hilary Cass has said that 'social transition' of a child is not a neutral act.

'Social transition' is most definitely a thing. How else would we all know what they mean by these statements?

'Social transition' is the sum of actions performed by the person who IDs as trans (child or adult) and the actions of all those around them, which seek to affirm the individual's 'gender identity'.

So the individual may choose to alter their appearance to play into the gender stereotypes associated with the opposite sex, or they may declare new pronouns or a new name, or attempt to demand access to opposite single sex spaces, as a way of affirming their 'gender identity' to themself and those around them.

People around them may participate in affirming this identity by using their chosen pronouns and name, signalling approval for their adoption of opposite sex sereotypes, accepting them in opposite sex spaces or just blatantly agreeing with them that they are the opposite sex. Maybe also by being a good 'ally' and aggressively shutting down any non-affirming messages.

'Social transition' is all the things that people do socially, including the 'trans' person, to uphold the lie that this man is a women, this woman is a man, this boy is a girl, this girl is a boy. It has nothing to do with medical treatment beyond the recommendation to not do it before assessment.

There is no such thing as 'social transition' inside of medical treatment. It's a thing that happens outside, in ordinary social situations such as families and friendship groups, and in non-medical settings such as workplaces and schools.

rogdmum · 20/07/2023 22:01

Exactly. It’s a psycho-social intervention which is dependent on others for validation.

PencilsInSpace · 20/07/2023 22:10

literalviolence · 20/07/2023 21:13

These arguments are so unconvincing. It's nothing like the baptism analogy. You can get baptised without necessarily pissing on the rights of others. You can't talk about 'social transitioning' without entrenching dangerous gender stereotypes.

If you think we need common words - ways to actually discuss this damaging movement - then clearly 'social transitioning' is not the right term. Because it means nothing. There are people, myself included, who think that men's clothes are any clothes worn by a man and men's behaviours are anything a man does. So there is no meaning to the concept of social transition. My best guess is that it's when a man does something that would have been assumed to be something only women did pre the second world war. Is that what we mean? We mean women wearing trousers or men having long hair? Or are we talking about men joining the WI and women driving a tractor? I honestly don't know what gender stereotypes you are referring to - or anyone else - when they say social transition so they just need to be more clear about what they actually mean cos the words social transitioning don't mean anything.

In terms of teachers, of course they are working with children who find themselves at odds with their individualised concept of the 'right' stereotypes for themselves. We need teachers, as other adults, to use language which helps kids see the stereotypes for the meaningless nonsense that they are.

Yes we need guidance. Of course. Teacher need to know they have the backing of a civilised society when they stop males going into female toilets. They need to know that men's toilets always were mixed gender and you can wear a school skirt in one if a teen boy wants that. Using the language of social transition does nothing to advance those conversations and everything to hide the reality of the men's right movement which currently has the ear of many of the political elite.

It's not feigning ignorance btw to say I don't know what social transitioning is. I literally do not know. I think perhaps you need to think about just how engaged with gender stereotypes you need to be to understand that concept. For those people who aren't so engaged, the term is meaningless and offensive.

We are definitely talking about men joining the Women's Institute, but not on this thread.

GNC women can see 'social transitioning' for what it is, probably more clearly than most.

Slothtoes · 20/07/2023 22:17

That Keegan’s statement mentioned schools acting in children’s best interests was a relief and made me think someone might be watching MN
As soon as schools have to make a best interests call it means evidencing why they think it is right thing to do for that child. That requires evidence. Best interests can also change over time. What the child or their parents or teachers ask to happen to the child, is not the determinant of what’s going to be in the child’s best interests. So it feels like a step forward that this requirement is being explicitly made by gov, assuming decisions aren’t already made this way. But there isn’t the evidence to back up social transitioning so I can’t believe it is..

on the GRA point- ECHR said to UK gov that needed to come up with a response to the Goodwin case, so they came up with GRA.
They could have come up with something else.

Now that we have the Equality Act, which came later than GRA, what reason is there to retain GRA? If non discrimination can be proven to be supported by other statute, then what’s the problem with scrapping GRA? There’s no general human right to change your legal sex status. Have we shown here that all the other countries in the group have a legal means to change sex?

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/07/2023 22:26

If Gillian Keegan can't define "girl" how can she possibly safeguard the juvenile human females attending our schools?Confused

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/07/2023 22:48

TooBigForMyBoots · 20/07/2023 22:26

If Gillian Keegan can't define "girl" how can she possibly safeguard the juvenile human females attending our schools?Confused

Yes. Add to that list the majority of labour MPs, the sad old lib dems and countless powerful men and women in society. Terrifying.

OldCrone · 20/07/2023 22:51

Now that we have the Equality Act, which came later than GRA, what reason is there to retain GRA? If non discrimination can be proven to be supported by other statute, then what’s the problem with scrapping GRA? There’s no general human right to change your legal sex status. Have we shown here that all the other countries in the group have a legal means to change sex?

I posted a link earlier to a Council of Europe document which says that of the 46 member states only 38 have a procedure of legal gender recognition, so since there are 8 which don't, this is not a requirement for membership.

The breaches of human rights in the Goodwin ruling could have been rectified by means other than the GRA. As you say, it is not a human right to be able to change your legal sex.

Slothtoes · 20/07/2023 22:57

Thank you OldCrone IANAL but I have tried to pay attention to the story of why the GRA came about (Chesterton’s Fence etc) and so it doesn’t ring true that we’re going to become ostracised as a country if we don’t continue to put men’s rights first over women’s and children’s in the form of GRA
Happy to continue to say that GRA should be repealed then (and the EqA clarified the biological sex)

LowKeyLockee · 20/07/2023 23:05

Failing to follow ECHR rulings means that the ECHR continually awards damages to all claimants from that country which the member state is required to pay. Along with the costs of the claimant having to bring the case. That would add up very quickly, especially as non-payment accrues interest until settlement

dimorphism · 20/07/2023 23:15

Ah so you mean it's just about forcing less powerful people to pretend something which they know not to be true at great personal and societal expense especially to women? Now I get it!

This is social transitioning. It's pissing all over the right to freedom of expression of all the other children (article 10 of the Human Rights Act).

If the teachers use wrong sex pronouns, the children are being essentially told that they should too. There's such a huge power imbalance. Currently in schools it's the gender critical students who are receiving punishments and who are scared to speak up i.e. are being discriminated against and denied their article 10 rights.

I really don't understand how the government could get this so wrong - actually I do - there are activist civil servants and not enough people who are competent enough to understand that the Equality Act does not apply to personal relationships and that safeguarding law for children in schools of course takes precedence.

All this bloody hand wringing about the Equality Act and international law.

No one seems to give a flying fuck that the law, including international law - is being broken RIGHT NOW when it comes to girls in schools. Children have a right to access education, girls are self excluding during periods in schools with mixed sex toilets. Those girls assaulted in the toilets - how are they supposed to access their right to education now?

There are laws which require that schools provide single sex toilets - some schools are breaking those laws NOW.

And you can't say preventing a child from forcing wrong sex pronouns on everyone else in the school is discrimination unless you're saying all the other children in the school get to force everyone else in the school to use wrong-sex pronouns if they feel like it and one child is being denied that. Schools would not function if every child could choose their own special pronouns and enforce this for everyone else.

No-one is suggesting children can't ask their peers to call them by a different name or ASK them to use different pronouns or dress in a gender non conforming way - what is being opposed is the compelled pronoun usage and keeping secrets from parents. And teachers going along with the lie that you can change sex and punishing children who refuse to go along with this lie.

dimorphism · 20/07/2023 23:23

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 20/07/2023 16:20

I think shes had a lecture from someone about safeguarding.

I think she's been reading Mumsnet.

Collectively we're apparently more qualified to safeguard children than the whole of the DfE. It's so shocking and appalling. I really object to my taxes being wasted on this shower of shit. People need to lose their jobs over this total failure.

Existing statutory safeguarding guidance for schools is being broken in schools and apparently no-one cares and nothing is going to happen.

MN FWR hivemind could have produced decent guidance for schools 2 years ago and we're not even getting paid. They're incompetent fools.

I feel so angry about how children's mental health is just being destroyed by activists and the DfE is doing nothing about it. And the children who will be worst affected will be the 'trans' kids. We're already seeing the horror stories from the detransitioners.

literalviolence · 21/07/2023 00:38

LonginesPrime · 20/07/2023 21:52

I honestly don't know what gender stereotypes you are referring to - or anyone else - when they say social transition so they just need to be more clear about what they actually mean cos the words social transitioning don't mean anything.

I didn't refer to gender stereotypes at all.

I just think it's odd to object to a term being used and to want people to stop using it while simultaneously claiming not to know what it means. Either you know what it means and you find it harmful to use it, or you don't know what it means and should probably try to find out before suggesting that people stop saying it. I don't see how your position can be both of these things and I'm really at a loss as to what you're trying to achieve here.

Obviously the term would be defined in any guidance that seeks to curtail the practice so that it would be clear to schools as to what the practice entails.

How i see the definition personally would be something along the lines of compelling others to collude in someone else's gender incongruence or gender distress by attempting to help them maintain the fiction they have created that they are a different sex from the one they really are. But obviously the definition in the guidance would be more along the lines of changing a child's sex marker on official documentation, allowing them to use the facilities reserved for the opposite sex, referring to them as "he" despite their being female, and so on.

It just feels so odd to be debating whether schools are actually facilitating these practices when teachers are losing their jobs and children are being disciplined for not colluding in it - i don't understand how pretending that's not happening is helping anyone.

Perhaps it's the words. What's happening is not social transition. It's abuse. It's silencing women. It's erosion of women's rights. It's the abolishing of female only spaces. Calling it late social transition is like calling murder a facilitation of afterlife transition. But in the case of murder it actually means the same thing to everyone. As far as I can tell from others explanations, social transition is just pretend pronouns and forcing boys into girls spaces. So let's call it that.

Rudderneck · 21/07/2023 01:48

PlanetJanette · 20/07/2023 17:57

That's not really how courts work.

They hear cases and decide on the legal issues those cases raise. The people who can influence the Court are the parties to the case.

Sometimes third parties can apply to become either a party to the case, or to make a submission to the court in respect of a specific case. Those are usually particular groups with particular expertise or functions, rather than random punters with an opinion.

Yes, I was maybe too obscure, my point is rather that what you have is an international body which can potentially block legislative processes in a democratic nation state, and there is not really any clear way for the citizens of that nation state to affect the things that body mandates.

StrawberryWasp · 21/07/2023 06:58

What is the legislation that states that parents should be involved in all decisions about their child and is crucial for safeguarding?

I'm in a discussion with a teacher who is now stating that because this guidance didn't come out schools don't have to tell parents.

OldCrone · 21/07/2023 07:12

literalviolence · 21/07/2023 00:38

Perhaps it's the words. What's happening is not social transition. It's abuse. It's silencing women. It's erosion of women's rights. It's the abolishing of female only spaces. Calling it late social transition is like calling murder a facilitation of afterlife transition. But in the case of murder it actually means the same thing to everyone. As far as I can tell from others explanations, social transition is just pretend pronouns and forcing boys into girls spaces. So let's call it that.

I agree with your description of what social transition is and its effects, but I think we're stuck with the term itself. I would suggest this definition of social transition: masquerading as the opposite sex and coercing everyone else to pretend that the person has changed sex.

We do need a term with this definition because it is happening frequently, and this is the term in common usage.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/07/2023 07:30

StrawberryWasp · 21/07/2023 06:58

What is the legislation that states that parents should be involved in all decisions about their child and is crucial for safeguarding?

I'm in a discussion with a teacher who is now stating that because this guidance didn't come out schools don't have to tell parents.

Fundamental principle of the 1989 Children Act - that children are best cared for in their families and professionals should aim to work in partnership with parents. Therefore, only the courts can remove parental responsibilities.
Parents retain these rights, even when their children are in care of the state unless the courts decide otherwise.
The police / social services can only remove a child from their home as a temporary measure - they have to go to court to get their emergency decisions ratified.
A school that refers a family to social services for physical abuse is often (not always) told to advise the parents that they have referred - a tough phone call for a teacher to make but again, based on working in partnership with parents

Working in partnership with parents has been baked into our child welfare / safeguarding legislation since the 1989 Children Act.

LonginesPrime · 21/07/2023 07:31

Perhaps it's the words. What's happening is not social transition. It's abuse. It's silencing women. It's erosion of women's rights. It's the abolishing of female only spaces. Calling it late social transition is like calling murder a facilitation of afterlife transition. But in the case of murder it actually means the same thing to everyone. As far as I can tell from others explanations, social transition is just pretend pronouns and forcing boys into girls spaces. So let's call it that.

I see what you're saying, and I appreciate that it sounds like a euphemism for what is actually happening (e.g. I wouldn't refer to someone having a double mastectomy for gender identify ideology-related cosmetic reasons as having "gender-affirming" surgery).

I find social transition to be a very helpful term personally, though, as it makes it quite clear that the thing providing the changes that person is demanding is other people. It's right there in the name, and there is no social transition without manipulating other people to comply with the demands.

To my mind, the words "social transition" do describe what's happening accurately, because (1) the only thing that's changing is how other people are treating the person (in that we all have to pretend for their benefit) and (2) the transition is required to be implemented by that person's social circle transitioning the way they behave, and without those other people providing that service to the person demanding it, there is no social transition.

Social transition is a service that other people provide to the person demanding it - parents might be willing to do that, and a school might (if it's been Stonewalled). But it shouldn't be the case that other people around that child, including the child's teachers and other children who have no duty to centre that child's needs to their own detriment, should be required to provide that service to that child.

Yes, the child might feel better if everyone bends to their will around them. That's the case for lots of things in life. But demanding it is not fair on others. And social transition without other people doesn't exist, hence the name. Which is why it is so problematic, because it only means anything if other people (including other children) are dragged into it, often to their own detriment.

One of the key arguments that trans people make around modifying pronouns is "it's not that hard", as if people's objection is because of the difficulty of the task. But what they don't seem to realise is that this comment reveals that regardless of whether it's hard or not, it is a task that takes at least some effort and it is an accommodation being asked of other people who don't necessarily want to support a movement they're fundamentally opposed to, or adapt their language or give up their own rights, just to make some random person feel better about their own life. The fact that "it's not that hard" is the best argument people can come up with for complying with social transition is the reason it should always be viewed (legally and otherwise, IMO) as a request as opposed to a demand. People need to be free to decline otherwise we are all just props in some random child's life.

I find it helpful to ask people pushing for it whether social transition exists without other people playing along, as it's the social element and the fact other people are having to transition their behaviour that gets to the crux of the issue.

SunnyEgg · 21/07/2023 07:36

As far as I can tell from others explanations, social transition is just pretend pronouns and forcing boys into girls spaces. So let's call it that.

It’s similar to ‘gender affirming care’ the mangling and softening of language is part of the activism

If we can’t just say what is happening it disarms

That adults created the term is a massive failing for children.

StrawberryWasp · 21/07/2023 07:38

MrsOvertonsWindow · 21/07/2023 07:30

Fundamental principle of the 1989 Children Act - that children are best cared for in their families and professionals should aim to work in partnership with parents. Therefore, only the courts can remove parental responsibilities.
Parents retain these rights, even when their children are in care of the state unless the courts decide otherwise.
The police / social services can only remove a child from their home as a temporary measure - they have to go to court to get their emergency decisions ratified.
A school that refers a family to social services for physical abuse is often (not always) told to advise the parents that they have referred - a tough phone call for a teacher to make but again, based on working in partnership with parents

Working in partnership with parents has been baked into our child welfare / safeguarding legislation since the 1989 Children Act.

Thank you!!

StrawberryWasp · 21/07/2023 07:41

literalviolence · 21/07/2023 00:38

Perhaps it's the words. What's happening is not social transition. It's abuse. It's silencing women. It's erosion of women's rights. It's the abolishing of female only spaces. Calling it late social transition is like calling murder a facilitation of afterlife transition. But in the case of murder it actually means the same thing to everyone. As far as I can tell from others explanations, social transition is just pretend pronouns and forcing boys into girls spaces. So let's call it that.

I think the 'social transition' issue for schools is going to boil down to pronouns and compelled speech.

Everything else is covered by just accepting gender non conformity, then safeguarding for single sex spaces agreed, then the issue left is pronouns and whether you can compell others to use language which supports your view of yourself.

LonginesPrime · 21/07/2023 07:42

To put it another way, literalviolence, obviously no-one can change sex, but there are several ways a person might try to make changes to their life to get closer to feeling like the sex they want to be:

  • medical transition: using medicines (hormones, etc)
  • surgical transition: using surgery
  • social transition: using other people
SunnyEgg · 21/07/2023 07:47

StrawberryWasp · 21/07/2023 07:41

I think the 'social transition' issue for schools is going to boil down to pronouns and compelled speech.

Everything else is covered by just accepting gender non conformity, then safeguarding for single sex spaces agreed, then the issue left is pronouns and whether you can compell others to use language which supports your view of yourself.

Yes agree

Should children and staff be compelled to use a pronoun. And what happens if they do not?

It should be a no

Then safeguarding spaces but also informing parents

Dissidente · 21/07/2023 07:53

The discussion about what social transition is seems to touch on a point that's been bugging me. It's that when a girl asks to be regarded as a boy, she is defining short hair, trousers, sturdy shoes as "boy stuff". (I provide the girls' side of a sex-segregated service.) All the girls who prefer short hair, trousers and practical shoes may then feel that their look is more boyish than it used to be.
In his way, stereotypes that we were rejecting throughout the 20th century are becoming entrenched again.
The reverse doesn't actually have a similar effect, because when boys put on dresses and makeup, there is no group of boys who wear dresses and makeup on an everyday basis. The only thing is long hair, but there are distinct masculine longhair styles. (Which, oddly, I have not seen any girls adopt in their bid to be regarded as a boy.)
So I do get @literalviolence when she asks what is social transition. It's a concept that requires us to reframe our social norms. It seems important to me to see it as an intervention which acts on the whole group, not only on the target individual.

Froodwithatowel · 21/07/2023 07:57

Dissidente · 21/07/2023 07:53

The discussion about what social transition is seems to touch on a point that's been bugging me. It's that when a girl asks to be regarded as a boy, she is defining short hair, trousers, sturdy shoes as "boy stuff". (I provide the girls' side of a sex-segregated service.) All the girls who prefer short hair, trousers and practical shoes may then feel that their look is more boyish than it used to be.
In his way, stereotypes that we were rejecting throughout the 20th century are becoming entrenched again.
The reverse doesn't actually have a similar effect, because when boys put on dresses and makeup, there is no group of boys who wear dresses and makeup on an everyday basis. The only thing is long hair, but there are distinct masculine longhair styles. (Which, oddly, I have not seen any girls adopt in their bid to be regarded as a boy.)
So I do get @literalviolence when she asks what is social transition. It's a concept that requires us to reframe our social norms. It seems important to me to see it as an intervention which acts on the whole group, not only on the target individual.

Very good point. And we have twits like Willoughby posting pictures of short haired women in trousers on social media, saying that how is that person more a woman than a man with long hair in a skirt.

And yes, certainly it is a case that it is framed as mattering only to the individual and caring for the individual - it is not. It has a massive society wide impact, and it's not a positive one.

HipTightOnions · 21/07/2023 08:05

Should children and staff be compelled to use a pronoun. And what happens if they do not?

Yes. And what are staff supposed to say when children ask "Is Billy a girl now, Miss?"

Swipe left for the next trending thread