Transwomen in Professional Darts

[Heliotroper]

Van Leuven knows that not everybody appreciates her “big glow-up”, as she puts it. Or the fact that she will be the first trans woman to play in a televised Professional Darts Corporation (PDC) tournament. Nevertheless, she wants to speak. “Because,” she says, “now I have the opportunity to tell my story. And not let other people tell it.”

The rules as they now stand are unequivocal: trans women are eligible to play in women’s tournaments as long as their passports say they are female, they have been in hormone replacement therapy for over 12 months and their testosterone level is below a certain mark. This is, of course, exactly as it should be. Physical strength, body development, player safety: none of these are remotely an issue in a game where all you really need is a functioning arm and decent eyesight.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jul/14/noa-lynn-van-leuven-darts-interview

https://dartsnews.com/pdc/interview-noa-lynn-van-leuven-becomes-first-trans-woman-at-televised-tournament-at-pdc-its-hard-to-do-top-sport-in-such-a-position

the bottom line for me is that Noa is taking up a place that should be going to a biological woman rather than playing on the men’s tour where Noa belongs.

It's a really interesting issue and presumably darts would be a good sport to look at why women don't succeed as well? Apart from anything else, the sheer "maleness" of the environment must have some impact on young women even considering competing.

All possible. I know that as a highly accomplished STEM woman, with exceptional spatial awareness (just you watch me park my van!) I can potentially get overly touchy about these sorts of comments.

A dart board is set with it's bulls eye at five foot eight from the ground

Why that height?

The most logical explanation is that it was the average height of man at the time they set the rules. When a dart is thrown it is held roughly at the same height as the top of the head.

I am also guessing that people shorter than this height face a disadvantage. Perhaps taller people do too.

1. Darts having an open category is clearly sensible. This allows all players to 'play as themselves' without compromising.

1. I would agree that the existence of the women's category is principally though not exclusively for social reasons.

1. If there is no physical difference between male and female players, why do the transgender participation rules for transwomen require hormone suppression? What is that meant to achieve?

Get so tired of saying this. If you genuinely believe the women's category is for all groups where there is social prejudice based on appearance, with zero physical elements at all (i don't personally agree but I can see the argument for darts more than most other pastimes) then rename the category - sure, follow Noa's lead and call it the Glow-Up category or the Welcome category if you like. If you can say 'The mens darts team doesn't accept me, I get comments when I compete which make it harder, the men call me a bender' then come on in. Should be a great category tbh, get some drag queens in there.

JUST DONT CALL IT WOMEN'S.

Men and women have biological differences that go far beyond the physical. In terms of hand to eye coordination it's because we evolved with males doing a lot more hunting than females. Women have other things we're much better at. Women have better memory recall, we're better at gauging emotion from facial cues and vocal tone, we're better at noticing small details, better at telling the sex of person even from a distance.

All of this is on a bell curve, so while there are women who are much better dart players than the average man and men who have better memories than the average women. At the upper ends of these types of skills, all the best dart players will be men, all of the best players of games like Go Fish will be women. (And I can guarantee you that it was the other way around memory recall games would be taken more seriously than throwing games.)

isn't there a lot of alcohol at dart events,if so could be an interesting night.

I test into the top percentile for spatial awareness, mechanical reasoning and mathematical reasoning as well as for verbal reasoning, abstract reasoning and VR/MR combined. My iq is over 170. But it's a bell curve. There are actually more women who are naturally in the top percentile for many of these types of abilities. However at the very, very top, men have the edge. There are also more men at the very, very bottom.

Absolutely. The language is always the same isn’t it. Always about the self. The perceived ‘authentic self’ is treated as innate when in fact anyone can see that it’s been chosen like a costume. All about the menz feels.

So if that's the only reason, why is Noa competing against women? Noa hasn't been denied any opportunities.

Just like Emily Bridges who was competing happily it seems on male cycling teams at university, Noa can compete against other men.

If as Jonathan is so keen to point out, there is zero difference between men and women when it comes to darts.

I mean there are only a few possible reasons why there's only been a handful of women competing at the top level of the darts open when they are at liberty to do so and the rewards would be much better

1: physical differences
2: social differences that mean women don't practise enough

Can't think of any other
Neither apply to a male person of any gender

If something is true, it's true.

We have a tendency to reason like this:
A is a fact.
A leads to consequence B.
I don't like B, therefore A can't true.
What we should do is accept the truth of A but question whether A does inexorably and inevitably lead to B.

If women's hand-eye coordination is worse than men's, all it means is that, depending on the exact parameters candidates need to fall within to qualify as a fighter pilot, more men than women will make the cut.

Apart from the factors that go into male athletic performance advantage, the differences between men and women are not dramatic and there is considerable overlap. Although in any given activity or sport, there may be a cumulative advantage for men caused by several different factors.

The separate league was primarily set up because of the social disadvantages, I believe. There was a thread about a male player in the women's category before.

I’m a big sports fan and I can’t understand why darts has separate competitions for women in the first place. A dart weighs about 22g and the oche is 2.37m form the board. Physical strength is, therefore, irrelevant. It’s absurd & patronising to divide the sexes.

I would have thought that as darts is traditionally a male dominated sport, played in pubs, it's a lot harder for younger women to get the hours of practice in that young men get.
In addition to the physical differences mentioned up thread there is also a social handicap on women progressing.

This person had the benefit of training as a man and now decides to enter the women's competition, when this person's competitors have not had the social training advantage for their entire lives up until this point

Darts is still stuck in the dark ages. Often women can only play on certain days - matches are not mixed.

Women don’t get enough changes to play and now they have to deal with a man taking a space that should rightly be given to a woman.

Have you read The Gendered Brain by Gina Rippon? It is far from settled as "fact" that men and women have inherently different brains, in fact her research suggests quite the opposite.

This doesn't mean that I think men should ever be allowed into women's competitions.

Well that's bollocks as well !

The BDO used to run a woman's world championship alongside the men's since way back in the late 70's . Maureen Flowers was the best of them then

If these fuckers could succeed in men’s sports with the rewards of bigger prize money would they still be so eager to compete against women?
You already know the answer.

I don't care what the sport or activity, if it's single sex, that is exactly what it should be.
Then there would be no question over whether it is affected by male, anatomy or physiological advantage.

It's not just about physical strength, it's also about height and limb length. It's more difficult to throw accurately if your eyeline is below the level of the board, and if you've got shorter arms then any slight imperfection in the angle of your aim is going to have more of an impact, as the dart is going to have to travel further after leaving your hand. Also if you're able to throw harder, then the momentum of the dart is going to be less counteracted by gravity. Yes they are finer margins than in other sports, but they are still there.

"none of these are remotely an issue in a game where all you really need is a functioning arm and decent eyesight."

Oh yea? So men are just that much better at it anyway, right? That is why there's really only one woman regularly beating men?

Are women going to be allowed to take beta blockers to lower their resting heart rates and level the playing field a little to compete against this man? No, didn't think so.

It seems that you don’t quite understand how biomechanics in the human body work. It is always interesting to see how the different type of muscles and bones can all work to produce a throw that is faster and more stable and more likely to remain on target.

To you, it seems irrelevant, but biomechanics play a huge role in target accuracy of a projectile launched and fully powered by a human. Even a 22 g one going 2.37 m.

I don't know why men in general outplay women at darts - though the Guardian journalist assures us that "all you really need is a functioning arm and decent eyesight" - but it seems clear that Noa-Lynn wouldn't be in a televised tournament outside of the women's competition.