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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Can we talk about this?

29 replies

Dissidente · 14/07/2023 21:47

A colleague asked my view on Pride at work, and I said I wasn't sure what was okay to say. She seemed surprised that anyone would think they couldn't speak freely...
Is the idea that we cannot say what we think just an illusion? Does anyone work in a place where there is a relaxed and open exchange of views around sex and gender?

OP posts:
namechanger563 · 14/07/2023 22:05

My team at work started a conversation that became very gender critical indeed. I sat quietly listening and smiled, I'm so proud of them. All men in a very male dominated industry, peaked without a single prod from me.

something2say · 14/07/2023 22:08

Whereas where I work, a woman recently said that she was proud of her home country for locking up those who are gay; that they really get this right, because the bible - etc.

I don't share my views at work - you never know who people are!

namechanger563 · 14/07/2023 22:08

Just thinking about it, maybe they were exercising their male privilege and don't know they are being controversial. Oblivious to the fact that women have lost their jobs for saying a lot less than what they had said.

RoseslnTheHospital · 14/07/2023 22:09

You'd hope that a respectful but frank exchange of views could be held in most work places. But it only takes a few people to decide they can use what might be said as a lever to cause people trouble. Look at the very many cases of (usually) women being sanctioned, sacked, dropped, forced to resign, etc etc.

TheGreatATuin · 14/07/2023 22:10

She seemed surprised that anyone would think they couldn't speak freely...
She must be very naive. Ask her if she's ever heard that JK Rowling was called transphobic.
That all started when JKR said women shouldn't lose their jobs for saying biological sex is real. It was hard to miss.

goodlordbirdie · 14/07/2023 22:17

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

notsurewherenotsurewhy · 14/07/2023 22:25

Really depends on the specific setting, even within the organisation I work in. Outside of 'proper work' (eg over lunch in smallish groups) I've heard what you could classify as GC views on women's sports (only from men though), and also shock and horror at the terfyness of JKR (from women).

On working time, I think we're all much more cautious than that. I would regard "what do you think about Pride?" as a bit of a startling question from a colleague, but impartiality is particularly important in my workplace and I realise that's not true everywhere.

Neodymium · 14/07/2023 22:31

Nope I work in education. Wouldn’t ever dream of saying anything.

I did however email the school counsellor following a presentation where they posed a hypothetical scenario about a student who returned from the holidays with short hair and wearing shorts and the answer was to ask them about it 😬. ‘Hey xxx I noticed you cut your hair and are wearing shorts, is there anything you want to talk about?’

I emailed the school counsellor that this is in my opinion completely inappropriate and as a parent if my daughter chose to cut their hair or my son chose to grow their hair and they were asked in this way I would be furious as I think people can have their hair how they like and I thought we were past ‘boys have short hair girls have long hair’

ACatCalledPushka · 14/07/2023 22:31

I would never speak out against the holy month of Pride. Although my gay uncle rolls his eyes at the mention as do two lesbian friends (who feel it’s actually anti lesbian now).

EmpressaurusOfCats · 14/07/2023 22:33

ACatCalledPushka · 14/07/2023 22:31

I would never speak out against the holy month of Pride. Although my gay uncle rolls his eyes at the mention as do two lesbian friends (who feel it’s actually anti lesbian now).

As a lesbian I agree with your friends.

Original poster
Dissidente · 15/07/2023 07:42

Thanks, that confirms my reality. I think we may have moved to a state where discussing whether we celebrate Pride with a Mexican Wave or a Conga counts as discussion.

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Original poster
Dissidente · 15/07/2023 07:51

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

This is the thing. Some of our young people excused themselves from the Mexican Wave, awkwardly and without explanation. Those who joined in included lesbians - but these are young teens, and I don't know their views.

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JacquelinePot · 15/07/2023 09:14

Wfh probably makes it much easier to avoid. I work in a very large corporate which buys a float in the local pride, changes to a rainbow screensaver during June and promotes various pride blogs on the intranet, toilets have been switched to mixed.

I saw someone post a few GC posts/articles on the intranet a while ago. By the time I went to read them they had been removed. I was told that there had been complaints. Plural. I don't believe I'm in a position to say anything at work.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 15/07/2023 09:20

I noted with some concern that my workplace has recently launched an LGBTQ network

which shouldn’t be the case. I think it’s probably still quite difficult to be openly gay in some parts of the organisation, and definitely difficult to be gender non conforming. A network to support people should be a good thing

maybe they will just support people and won’t stray into trying to enforce gender woo <looks on bright side >

Original poster
Dissidente · 15/07/2023 16:23

Is anyone aware of any research they could point me to about free speech on sex and gender?

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BCBird · 15/07/2023 16:27

I.don't think people do feel they can talk freely.

HPFA · 15/07/2023 16:59

My workplace is OK.

Someone used the word "Terf" on a work communication and I complained to the manager - they fully agreed that it was inappropriate language so that was fine.

We have gender-neutral loos (which do feel safe) plus male and female. I generally use the GN ones as they're more conveniently located. I don't know if we have a trans woman working in the building.

I like my trans work colleague - and suspect they forget half the time that they're meant to be identifying as a different gender.

My intent if ever asked what I think is to say "Are you happy for me to be honest about this?" - that way people are prepared and they can't really get upset afterwards.

There have been instances where I've had to think hard about handling the issue - but describing them would be too outing. So far I feel like I've managed them OK.

PurpleBugz · 15/07/2023 19:49

No we definitely can't talk freely.

I'm self employed so I'm not at risk with loosing employment. But I have done training and seen the gender woo come out of nowhere it felt like- I am interested to see how its changed again when I update all my safeguarding and diversity training as I'm required to do regularly. I do work with kids but luckily I've not been faced with it yet and currently out of work caring for my disabled child for the foreseeable anyway so moot point for me. I would be respectful and avoid pronouns if challenged would highlight my equality policy covers beliefs and I'm following it. My insurance has legal cover and a sort of union I'd hope they would support me if it goes further but I expect people would just look elsewhere than my services. Other people I know who work in my area seem oblivious but we are all so inclusion minded I just assume they are captured without knowing as I expect they think about me if they are GC.

I did a visit not too long ago looking for a place and people I need for something and just got an uncomfortable vibe and had decided it's not right then I saw one high up staff member was in trans flag crocs and there was a whole line of them for the kids to use. I felt relief I had already decided no before I saw that so I knew it wasn't transphobia but was uncomfortable for the reaction I had because it was very 'no way if they are pushing trans ideology I can't trust their safeguarding in any area I won't have that come back in me'. I don't think we can even think freely because we have to constantly question if we are being fair equal or if really we are transphobic for a decision and how xyz will impact the rights of others.

One group I cross paths with out of work has two trans kids currently. It absolutely causes awardness. The male born child who thinks he's a girl forcefully kissed a female born child and it was absolutely sickening how it was brushed off and dismissed as not a big deal "kids will be kids" even by the victim's parent. Then this female child is suddenly trans and now a boy. I won't say anything I desperately need the group for my disabled child but I've made general comments on news stories not what happened in the group that assault among kids is still assault. I won't let my kids be around this kid without me. Multiple other parents are hovering around their kids when this one is about or just don't use the group anymore and now their kids missing out massively. It's just awkward. We all feel uncomfortable. I think most are kinda angry but the parents of the trans kids dominate and there are no other groups for this particular thing we need. I wear my "they didn't burn witches they burned women" t shirt there quite a lot but I would never wear my adult human female top.

BUT I do see the tide turning. I only had one family member know about this stuff and Mumsnet now I see it more and more in the everyday.

My child's school had an anti bullying policy last term that had a 2 day internal suspension for the bullying of misgendering. They just asked for parents input for updating the policy and I rolled my sleeves up to give them a load of information and feedback but the draft policy has already removed that part. And while the trans kids at the school are still using the wrong sex toilet they have a teacher clear/check no one else is in there while they do so. Seems ridiculous to me but my daughter can now be confident she won't meet a boy in the girls toilets so I'm happy with that.

ScreamingBeans · 15/07/2023 20:54

I was recently in a training session where our workplace LGBQTIABCetc. staff group rep presented info about the staff group and TQUIABCetc. issues.

Someone asked about gender critical views and the trainer said he tries to avoid them because he sees them as an excuse for hatespeak.

I did not feel that I could speak up.

It's bollocks to pretend there's frank and open discussion on this issue.

ArabeIIaScott · 15/07/2023 21:06

Oh my god of course we can't talk freely!

I would regard "what do you think about Pride?" as a bit of a startling question from a colleague

This. What the fuck do they expect you to say?

OceanicBoundlessness · 15/07/2023 21:11

I went to Manchester Pride by accident over 20 years ago. Even then I was struck by the amount of fetishwear and men crawling about on leashes, but thought it was a hoot at the time. My opinion from that is that it's very much an adult thing and not suitable for children.

More recently I went with a friend who is a lesbian, but I think all the other lesbian women had moved on. All the music acts were drag acts pretty much doing karaoke and not my cup of tea. It felt very much like a male festival with a contingent of straight women fetishizing gay men.

So my observations are not for children and not for lesbians. I'm not sure how controversial it is to say that.

Original poster
Dissidente · 15/07/2023 21:18

@OceanicBoundlessness thanks, it's reassuring to know my perception of reality is at least shared by another human being.

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PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 16/07/2023 16:34

Oh the other side can speak freely!

Even to the extent of saying punch a terf in the face.

Your colleague needs to check her 'free speech' privilege

SidewaysOtter · 16/07/2023 16:42

Hell, no. I work in a university. Freedom of speech is very much championed but that doesn’t stop other staff (or indeed students) turning against you and I just don’t need the hassle.

ThomasinaLivesHere · 16/07/2023 17:25

I wouldn’t feel free to express such ideas at work plus you have some ultra woke young people. Sometimes my work gets into such discussions but I just try and avoid it as I don’t want to lose job. So much for bring your whole self to work.