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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is it offensive to say "straight" or "neurotypical"?

276 replies

MerlinsLostMarbles · 08/07/2023 12:17

I've been trying to understand why the gender critical movement are saying "cis" is offensive and still not quite getting it since it just means "not trans" (cis and trans are prefixes with opposite meanings).

From what I can gather the argument given by the gender critical movement is that the "default" is not-trans, therefore there shouldn't need to be a word for the "default", just as we don't have a specific word for someone who doesn't collect stamps (an example I've seen given).

But we have "straight" and "heterosexual" to refer to people who aren't homo/bi-sexual, we also have "neurotypical" to refer to people with typical neurological development or functioning. You could say these are also "defaults".

So why is "cisgender" an apparent "offensive slur" when straight and neurotypical aren't?

OP posts:
FlirtsWithRhinos · 08/07/2023 19:42

We don't call the east or west coast lines cispennine.

i do now!

ErrolTheDragon · 08/07/2023 19:52

FlirtsWithRhinos · 08/07/2023 19:42

We don't call the east or west coast lines cispennine.

i do now!

Bear in mind that if you're in Lancashire the west line would be the cispennine, the east coast line would be Transpennine and the actual Transpennine would be, er, t'other transpennine which can transport you between them.
And vice versa in Yorkshire.

Waitwhat23 · 08/07/2023 19:53

At least these threads are good for the lurkers. As a pp said, it's not the case that the OP doesn't understand. The OP just doesn't agree.

Balloonhearts · 08/07/2023 19:58

It really doesn't matter whether it is scientifically accurate or not, does it? If it is offending entire majorities then it's offensive.

Let's replace it with a different slur and see if your argument still stands up.

Mental retardation was technically a medical term at one point and actually originated in clockwork. Retard means delay. To slow down. A watch that is losing time is retarded. But it was used as an insult so often it became a slur. Therefore it is offensive. It is no longer used as a diagnosis and you rarely hear it used in regards the clockwork either now. Because it has negative connotations. Because it has become offensive.

Negro literally translates to black in Spanish. Technically correct. Describing a black person as being black in English is acceptable. Yet calling someone a negro or n**ger is still extremely offensive.

I think we can all agree that neither of those terms are acceptable. They became unacceptable when hundreds, possibly thousands of people spoke out and said they were offended by them. Hundreds, possibly thousands of women are telling you they are offended by being labelled cis. Your argument is on its arse.

Its technical definition is irrelevant. It comes down to respect.

If you don't want to be called a man, you expect me to respect that. So when I say I don't want to be called cis, you need to respect that.

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 08/07/2023 20:08

Waitwhat23 · 08/07/2023 19:53

At least these threads are good for the lurkers. As a pp said, it's not the case that the OP doesn't understand. The OP just doesn't agree.

At least these threads are good for the lurkers
Well, I have to agree there.
We presumably disagree on why though.

thirdfiddle · 08/07/2023 20:11

It's one of those language switcheroos.

One moment 'cis' is 'not identifying as trans' which is just about okay - I'm an atheist because I don't believe in any religion.

The moment any of us agree to be called it though, it suddenly means 'identifying with your birth sex'. And that I am not. It's like being told that because I'm not church of England I must be a Roman Catholic.

I don't have any identity feelings around sex. Just observations of biology. If you forced me at gunpoint to tick a gender identity box I would have to tick non-binary.

Sometimes I hate my biology like when I had periods, joints starting to go creaky post menopause, the fact that my husband is stronger than me even when he's totally out of shape, boobs generally being a nuisance, and most of the clothes tailored to fit my body shape being really not to my taste. Sometimes it's cool like being able to grow babies and feed them. I've always tried not to go down a thought path of if only I could be male because I can't. I only get one shot at life and this is the body I've been dealt.

JeandeServiette · 08/07/2023 20:12

MerlinsLostMarbles · 08/07/2023 13:15

"They're not the same at all, and to argue straight is offensive and homophobic here is absurd."

Straight isn't offensive or homophobic at all, that's the point. And neither is cisgender, or atheist, or neurotypical.

Oh well then, oh wise one, why are you asking us since you know everything with such unshakable certainty?

Don't bump your sagacity on your way out.

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 08/07/2023 20:18

Sometimes I hate my biology like when I had periods, joints starting to go creaky post menopause, the fact that my husband is stronger than me even when he's totally out of shape, boobs generally being a nuisance, and most of the clothes tailored to fit my body shape being really not to my taste. Sometimes it's cool like being able to grow babies and feed them. I've always tried not to go down a thought path of if only I could be male because I can't. I only get one shot at life and this is the body I've been dealt.
I don't hate my biology though, or the body I've been dealt (although I agree I hate my periods)
I just don't identify with being a woman being a nuisance, a pain , and I would hate to be a man as I just could never identify as one.
I identify as a woman, I feel like one, I am one.
Which is why this "debate" is circular as we're all clearly never going to agree.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 08/07/2023 20:29

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 08/07/2023 20:08

At least these threads are good for the lurkers
Well, I have to agree there.
We presumably disagree on why though.

🤣🤣🤣

you think women are walking away from this thread thinking ‘cis? Sign me up! Bring in the regressive stereotypes-I’m in!’

right you are

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 20:35

I didn't used take offence at being called 'straight' - even though it has become increasingly annoying...ever since it has become a kind of slur used in queer circles for people they don't consider to be fabulous and queer. It has connotations of being boring and conventional. 'Cishetnormativity' is something to be rejected.

'Cis' is only used by people who subscribe to gender ideology. Women are not a sub-set of their own sex. Suggesting they are is just another way for women to be marginalised and excluded - and enables gender ideologues to enact colonisation and appropriation of the distinct human grouping that is women.

I recall apologists saying " Oh but saying 'cis women' is just like saying 'black women' - which is of course horribly racist. Women are women regardless of their race, their religion, their social class or their creed.

Transwomen are male by definition - a category of male, not female.

thirdfiddle · 08/07/2023 20:42

Bodger, you are perfectly welcome to identify as a woman assuming you are actually one. People identify with different aspects of their lives depending on what they like and what is important to them. Being a woman isn't one of mine, it's just a fact, like my height and my eye colour. I don't /identify/ as brown-eyed, I just am.

So, we have some people who identify as their own sex and as 'cis', some people who identify as the other sex (or possibly as cats) and are 'trans', and a whole load of people who don't have any identity feelings on the subject of sex at all. Are we in agreement so far?

That means what you can't do is attempt to split the whole population into a cis-trans binary. Lots of us aren't either. You can't replace sex-segregated things with gender-segregated things, because that leaves a whole load of people unclassified, whereas everyone has a sex.

Nellodee · 08/07/2023 20:45

I don’t think anyone is arguing with Bodger’s right to identify as cis and not be offended.

How difficult is it to return the favour and realise other people don’t identify as cis and therefor are offended by it?

Transparent2 · 08/07/2023 20:59

CurlewKate · 08/07/2023 16:49

Has anyone actually come across a real life situation where "straight" is considered a slur?

Apparently I'm a straight white male, and that is three bad things about me, no matter how I actually behave.

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 08/07/2023 21:19

Transparent2 · 08/07/2023 20:59

Apparently I'm a straight white male, and that is three bad things about me, no matter how I actually behave.

There's nothing wrong with being a straight white male. 🙄

JanesLittleGirl · 08/07/2023 21:36

I'm still waiting for a definition of 'cis woman' that doesn't involve gender or trans.

Transparent2 · 08/07/2023 21:40

That depends who you ask, @BodgerLovesMashedPotato. I'm not actually offended when "straight white male is used disparagingly, but RebelliousCow in her post describes what I'm talking about - similar to "cishetnormativity" never to my knowledge being used positively.

Waitwhat23 · 08/07/2023 21:47

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 08/07/2023 20:08

At least these threads are good for the lurkers
Well, I have to agree there.
We presumably disagree on why though.

We probably do disagree on why.

I just remember multiple past threads by lurkers where many (in one case, hundreds) of them temporarily stepped out the shadows to state their support for regular posters who stand up for women's rights. Those threads were both humbling and encouraging and when I interact with threads on this board, I keep those lurkers in mind.

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 08/07/2023 21:57

Waitwhat23 · 08/07/2023 21:47

We probably do disagree on why.

I just remember multiple past threads by lurkers where many (in one case, hundreds) of them temporarily stepped out the shadows to state their support for regular posters who stand up for women's rights. Those threads were both humbling and encouraging and when I interact with threads on this board, I keep those lurkers in mind.

I keep in mind the ones that have messaged in the past saying they agree, but don't want to comment on threads as can't face any pile on, or that they used to think the same as others on here then had their eyes "opened," for want of a better expression by some threads on here.
So yes, clearly we're coming from different places

LonginesPrime · 08/07/2023 21:58

That's not strictly correct. If you want to get technical on the language side, the original translations of both words, trans and cis, have been fudged. "Cis" means "on this side" which is not quite the same as "on the same side", and "trans" just means "across".

One way they were originally used was "Transalpine Gaul" and "Cisalpine Gaul" to denote which side of the Alps each bit of France was. The Alps themelves were neither Transalpine nor Cisalpine, they were just Alpine!

But these words were used to describe two things (the Alps and the parts of Gaul) that presumably the people using them agreed both existed.

It wouldn't make any sense to describe a part of Gaul as Cisalpine Gaul if the Alps didn't exist and the land was in fact flat, as Cisalpine would have no meaning if there was nothing to be on this side or on the other side of.

However, if one set of Gauls in this hypothetical flat region of Gaul wanted to keep certain other Gauls in their place and make sure they didn't speak out of turn or get involved in Gaul matters and enforce their own rights, they might see a benefit in telling everyone that the other Gauls need to get back in their box because there is actually a big group of huge mountains in the way that will prevent them from attending Gaul meetings that affect the decision-making for the whole of the Gaul region.

The sidelined Gauls say "don't be silly, there's no mountain, I've every right to speak at the meetings and I'm coming", but then the Gauls that are asserting their dominance start defining themselves according to the mountains they say exist that no-one else can see. So they call themselves Transalpine Gauls, and so you can only refer to them by acknowledging that they believe in the Alps. Fine. Makes sense. But then, despite the silenced Gauls disputing that the mountains exist, the Transalpine Gauls, because they've been shutting the other Gauls who disagree with them out of the meetings, decide to refer to the silenced Gauls as Cisalpine Gauls. And so now everyone is referring to the silenced Gauls in terms of the imaginary mountains, the belief in which is the very mechanism that's silencing those Gauls.

And then people will only listen to the silenced Gauls talking if they accept the name Cisalpine Gauls, meaning that those Gauls can only get a seat at the table if they accept the bloody mountains exist even thought they know the land is flat and that it's only the perpetuation of the fiction of the mountains that's impeding their rights.

It's all very galling.

I know nothing about the politics of historical Alpine regions so apologies if I've misinterpreted what these terms mean, but my point is that "on this side" and "on that side" only work to describe a relationship between two things - it's not the word "cis" that's the problem, it's that it's seeking to describe something that only makes sense from the perspective of a believe in gender identity. If you don't believe in it, you're describing a relationship between one thing and nothing, which makes no sense.

MavisMcMinty · 08/07/2023 22:04

Did Merlin get bored with Merlin’s own thread?

JanesLittleGirl · 08/07/2023 22:08

MavisMcMinty · 08/07/2023 22:04

Did Merlin get bored with Merlin’s own thread?

Nah. Just got burnt.

JanesLittleGirl · 08/07/2023 22:09

It was a classic notgotcha.

MavisMcMinty · 08/07/2023 22:15

But Merlin is always completely and thoroughly bested on MN without ever conceding, why should this thread be different? Personally I think it was your challenge to define “cis” without using the words gender or identity, so it’s one to bear in mind for the future.

JanesLittleGirl · 08/07/2023 22:18

Shruggs

Yarnorama · 08/07/2023 22:24

BodgerLovesMashedPotato · 08/07/2023 21:57

I keep in mind the ones that have messaged in the past saying they agree, but don't want to comment on threads as can't face any pile on, or that they used to think the same as others on here then had their eyes "opened," for want of a better expression by some threads on here.
So yes, clearly we're coming from different places

Oh, the old "you don't know them cuz they go to a different school" thing.

lol.