What the gender critical movement is trying to achieve

[NotTerfNorCis]

Someone on Twitter has asked what the 'end goal' of the gender critical movement is.

Mumsnet is a better forum for discussing it (you can write as much as you want, and abuse isn't allowed) so I'm setting up this thread.

Personally I'd say the goals were broadly:

1. Transsexuals who are cognitively mature and persistent in their belief deserve to be treated with tolerance and kindness. They shouldn't suffer discrimination in jobs or housing. They shouldn't suffer abuse because of their transsexual status. The NHS should support them. People should respect their chosen name and pronouns, unless there's a very good reason not to.

2. It should always be possible to acknowledge a person's biological sex. That is what makes someone a woman or a man. For example, in media reporting of a sexual crime, or referring to a sex offender, the person's biological sex must be acknowledged. No rape victims should be forced to call a male attacker 'she'.

3. Where necessary, biological sex will be taken into account, and women's rights will be based on sex rather than gender identity. For example, sports should be separated into male (or open) and female, not 'male-identified' and 'female-identified'. Same-sex attraction should be respected. If need be, males should be kept out of female spaces.

4. Biological sex should also be taken into account in larger studies and surveys, like the census. Otherwise the data is misleading.

5. The spread of gender ideology needs to stop. Kids shouldn't be taught that 'woman' is defined by stereotypes, and if they don't feel comfortable with the social stereotypes associated with their sex, they must be the opposite sex (or 'non-binary', 'gender fluid' etc). In other words, as a society we need to stop elevating 'gender'.

6. Transitioners shouldn't be accepted without question, especially young people. Otherwise we end up with tragic cases like Milo: The prescription of puberty blockers should be reviewed. Clinics should carry out careful checks to make sure that the person's trans status isn't a manifestation of something else, like a repressed sexual orientation, or reaction to abuse.

7. Families affected by a member transitioning should be given any support they need, rather than being dismissed. That includes if they have a negative reaction to the transition.

8. The sense of being in the wrong body is an agonising mental health condition, as transsexuals like Buck Angel acknowledge: https://twitter.com/BuckAngel/status/1676398204412387328 There should be research to find out if the condition can be alleviated from a mental health perspective, without needing surgery.

9. (Ideally) any awards given to males competing in female categories should be retrospectively reviewed.

10. It should be valid to say that transwomen are not a subset of women and transmen are not a subset of men, without being discriminated against or abused. Gender critical beliefs (which are actually pretty mainstream) should be respected.

In short: genuine transsexuals should be respected, but sex is the ultimate marker of whether someone is a man or a woman and must be taken into account. Elevating gender stereotypes is anti-feminist. Genderism is a fad that kids need protecting from.

@NotTerfNorCis "In short: genuine transsexuals should be respected"

There was a 'true trans' in my Lesbian group, he loudly announced when he got his willy cut off. He was an utterly obnoxious narcissist and behaved typically like a male, boasting about his car, his money, trying to pick up young girls in bars.

We loathed him

For me the basic idea is that gender stereotypes—and that’s what they are—are something for society to overcome, not something that should override biological sex. So anyone who wants to can dress/present however he/she wants but that has no relevance for whether you are a man or a woman. Boys can play with dolls! Girls can be mechanics! None of this requires medical treatment.

(Medical treatment should be available for those that need it. Although I think if we take away the power of stereotypes I think fewer people will feel the need.)

My first point was: transsexuals exist and deserve not to be discriminated against or badly treated because they're transsexual. I would assume everyone is fine with that. But I went on to say that society can't bend everything around this distorted version of reality. They are the sex they were born, and sometimes that is very relevant.

The thread is about the 'end goal' of gender critical feminism. Obviously people who identify as trans are affected by gender critical goals.

Same sex orientation should also be respected. Males shouldn't be allowed in lesbian groups. By discrimination I was talking more about basic rights like housing and employment.

Your post is definitely trans-centric, OP. It's not very effective to discuss what 'gender critical' people are trying to achieve by launching into trans this, trans that.

I can only speak for myself. I am trying to achieve the following:

1. That 'sex' means only biological sex
2. That there is separation of the sexes when considered the proper thing to do by the average, sensible person (the erstwhile 'man on the Clapham omnibus').
3. That women (and men) are allowed to meet in single sex groups if desired, in accordance with freedom of association laws.
4. Freedom of speech & expression, subject to it not being inciting violence.
5. Safeguarding not being conflated with discrimination.

Maybe it’s not a ‘gender critical movement’ but a bunch of miscellaneous people and groups who are resisting the gender ideology movement.

Maybe there is no ‘end game’ or ‘agenda’. Maybe it’s just people who’ve said ‘actually no; you can’t impose your new religion on me’.

Indeed.

I'm not remotely bothered by whether a male is trans or not. They are still male. And I'm not.

I don't want to be the afterthought / other.

I want equal safety and protection. I don't get this by allowing ANY males to ignore biology and suggest it's irrelevant in any situation.

Gender is not sex.

The question "what is the end-goal of the gender critical movement" is predicated on a falsehood that not subscribing to gender identity ideology (and therefore being on the outside of the group of 'believers in gender identity ideology') constitutes forming a movement in itself.

The "gender critical movement" is an idea that gender identity ideologues have invented to explain the fact that people still exist who don't believe the gender-based ideas which they hold as fundamental truths. It seems the only way they can fathom that not everyone agrees with their take on gender is to assume that non-believers in their ideology have suddenly adopted a brand new way of thinking and so, in their eyes, it's a lack of belief in gender identity ideology is the weird new religion and is therefore seen as a movement. To them, they are the sensible ones whose views are based on science and it's gender critical people who have all these batshit ideas like biological sex matters.

This is similar to people going around telling non-trans people that we're all "cis" because we must be happy to accept the gender stereotypes and sex-based oppression given that we haven't come out as trans - they can only see things from their own perspectives, so they view non-believers as having started a separate movement because it's the only way to explain the pushback from non-believers without accepting that gender identity is a philosophical belief and not a fact.

Some of those people might be part of other political ‘movements’ with more or less well defined agendas.

But let’s not pretend this is some clash of two opposing movements. It’s not. It’s merely the WTF reaction to a well mobilised on social media movement that wants to change and control many aspects of society.

Of course TRAs want everyone to pretend it’s some coherent ‘movement’ they’re fighting against. But it really isn’t. It’s largely a mishmash group of people who’ve come to realise that the demands of gender ideology are not something they’re happy to accept. Parents worried about their teenagers in school. Women worried about the loss of single sex spaces. Female athletes pushed out by males who want to compete as women. People horrified by what ‘gender medicine’
actually entails. People despairing that the government would put male
rapists in women’s prisons. And so on.

Some people or groups have started to organise to counteract the ideology using ‘be kind’ to sneak changes by under the radar and demonise any dissent. But for the most part there is no ‘gender critical movement’.

What the gender critical movement is trying to achieve

The 'gender critical movement' is the default position. I'd like for us to retain our hard won sex based rights.

IMO, trans activism has been an extreme social experiment, and the overall outcome has been negative. All they had to do back then was legalise gay marriage, instead they chose to let people falsify legal documents.

My goal now is to repeal the Gender Recognition Act. The only people who might need a revised birth certificate are those who have a severe difference of sexual development, and that should be between them and their doctor.

I think opposing gender “stereotyping” (or what feminists have long just called gender) has always been the main tenet for me. I am gender critical in the most fundamental sense, and that is what first led me to doubt a supposedly progressive movement that is predicated on the belief that gender is innate (I am aware that TRAs argue that their version of gender is not about stereotypes, but let’s be honest it always boils down to pink and blue).

I was gender critical long before I had considered where trans people/ ideology might figure in all this, which I think is something that TRAs don’t tend to be able to comprehend.

I don’t want to be socially shamed into pretending. So no, I won’t do the pronouns shuffle

the whole idea that anyone is born in the wrong body is preposterous

people should be able to dress how they like and behave how they like, sure. But if it tips over into pretending they’ve changed sex and expecting others to go along with it then I’m out

you seem very focused on what others should do for people who enjoy role playing as members of the opposite sex OP

Why kind of problems do trans people have?the BBC , the CPS , Banks, the NHS, the Anglican Church all cater to them.

I think this whole thing has exposed the vulnerability of the structures of our supposedly free society, how they can be misused to suit the purposes of those who want to coerce others into their own belief system and values.

People with serious psychological disorders and dangerous ideas about human sexuality, being able to use strategic litigation, abuse of well-intended initiatives to make workplaces and public services inclusive and fair, manipulation of communications technologies, and so on, to entirely circumvent democracy and crown themselves our overlords. This is a serious hole.

We need to plug it.

OP your position is far too waffly and as a PP says, puts trans at the centre of it. Again. It really is quite simple - getting the law and our institutions to acknowledge:

• Biological sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex is immutable and based in reality AND IS NOT A "BELIEF", gender is a complex mix of cultural stereotypes and individual personality.
• No-one should be discriminated against for either their sex or gender, but biological sex matters sometimes and when it does, single-SEX facilities need to be provided and respected for the dignity and safety of users.

As far as I'm concerned, it mostly boils down to those two points. Totally mainstream and uncontroversial up to a couple of years ago.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think these people actually change sex. But in a compassionate society you have to be a bit flexible. It's kind to go along with their identity to a point. The moment a transwoman wants to compete in women's sports, or to be sent a women's prison though... that's where the line is drawn.

I used to believe in being compassionate and using pronouns but I think that's what got us into the mess we are in now. I think Helen Staniland was spot on when she said "It starts with pronouns and ends with a six foot male getting their cock out in the female changing room". Over the last 5 years my compassion has completely evaporated.

For me, no recognition of "gender" in law at all.

All of the protections for 'expression' are already contained in laws for sex discrimination. People should not have special extra rights because they choose to believe in a framework of regressive sexist stereotypes.

There is no Gender Critical Movement. There are people who are gender critical.

There are key figures like Posie Parker and Kathleen Stock, there are meetings and there are court cases. One of the pivotal events in gender critical feminism was when Maria MacLachlan got attacked for trying to attend a feminist meeting. I'd say there is a political movement, even if most people who oppose genderism aren't actually politically active. At my workplace for example there's a man who's very opposed to genderism. He isn't politically active at all, right now. But he says that if genderism is taught at his son's school, he'll organise a protest with other parents.

The thread is about the 'end goal' of gender critical feminism. Obviously people who identify as trans are affected by gender critical goals.

Trans people will obviously be affected by gender critical people pushing back to retain or reinstate their own rights, so obviously they aren't going to be happy about not being able to rearrange the world exactly as they'd like it.

But aside from a few odd or vindictive people who will be an inevitable subsection of any large group of humans, I can imagine that gender critical people have any end-goals that have anything to do with trans people specifically - why would they?

This sounds more like the myth perpetuated in trans circles - that if women try to retain their existing sex-based rights, proponents of gender identity frame it as those women "trying to eradicate trans people".

But aside from a few odd or vindictive people who will be an inevitable subsection of any large group of humans, I can imagine that gender critical people have any end-goals that have anything to do with trans people specifically - why would they?

It's pretty obvious- if you campaign for transwomen to be identified as male, or for them to be kept out of women's spaces and sports because they are male, it's going to affect them. Certainly TRAs- including the man who asked this question on Twitter originally - are deeply concerned about what gender critical feminism means for them.

But to make it clear - as I said, sex trumps gender, and genderism is a reactionary, potentially harmful ideology.

It's pretty obvious- if you campaign for transwomen to be identified as male, or for them to be kept out of women's spaces and sports because they are male, it's going to affect them. Certainly TRAs- including the man who asked this question on Twitter originally - are deeply concerned about what gender critical feminism means for them.

Yes, I'm sure they would be.

But the fact that trans people would be affected by women regaining their sex-based rights doesn't mean that people who believe that biological sex sometimes matters have any kind of goals involving trans people - they're generally concerned with protecting their own sex-based rights and those of their children and so on.

I think characterising it as 'campaigning for transwomen to be identified as male' is an odd way to phrase things, as it implies they're not male - it's not like gender critical people are trying to redefine transwomen as male - they actually are male; it's that transwomen are campaigning to have themselves reclassified as female, and women are saying "no, that doesn't work for our existing sex-based rights (which we still need) because you are biologically male".

Males will obviously feel that is very mean of women and they will take every opportunity to tell us, as they always have.

It's nothing new for men to shame women into being kind to get what they want - it's probably the reason half of us even exist in the first place.

if you campaign for transwomen to be identified as male, or for them to be kept out of women's spaces and sports because they are male, it's going to affect them.

I don’t think the word woman should be used to describe any sort of man, no matter what the prefix, so your argument doesn’t make sense to me. Men and women are opposites in the same way up and down are opposites. It makes no say that “up” is “transdown”.

I read it as

if you campaign for men to be identified as male, or for them to be kept out of women's spaces and sports because they are male, it's going to affect them.

It’s only going to affect the men who rail against reality and women’s boundaries. Why should people be so concerned about this group? Respecting reality and women’s boundaries isn’t that great an ask of people.

Yep, completely this

As others have said, its not a movement.

I want the government to stop giving men female id and birth certificates. It's a pointless lie that compromises safeguarding.

When government doesn't understand that sex and age are key factors in safeguarding and conspire with adult men to hide key facts about themselves, what hope do other organisation have to maintain safety?