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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Teenager guilty of murder. Thread 2

52 replies

placemats · 04/07/2023 14:20

A new thread in case the other one gets filled up because I have a busy day. For the purposes of doubt, I believe strongly that Paris Mayo should not have been jailed for such a long time and that this was a case of infanticide.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/26/teenager-murdered-newborn-son-herefordshire-jailed-paris-mayo

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hereford-worcester-65999897

Teenager Paris Mayo sentenced to at least 12 years for murder of newborn son

Mayo was 15 when she killed son she gave birth to at her home in Herefordshire to hide pregnancy from her family

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/26/teenager-murdered-newborn-son-herefordshire-jailed-paris-mayo

OP posts:
OP posts:
MichelleScarn · 04/07/2023 14:31

Slightly disingenuous title? Violent, cruel and horrible murder (although what murder isn't?)
of her defenceless newborn.
Smashed Stanley's skull in it looked like a car crash, left him to die, then when she went back and he wasn't dead, she didn't get help she suffocated him with cotton wool balls stuffed in his mouth? No sympathy for her.

placemats · 04/07/2023 15:01

Feel free to add additional links, especially @AP5Diva who has a lot of very informative information.

I have a very busy week ahead but do try to keep track of all those who post on this.

OP posts:
placemats · 04/07/2023 15:02

MichelleScarn · 04/07/2023 14:31

Slightly disingenuous title? Violent, cruel and horrible murder (although what murder isn't?)
of her defenceless newborn.
Smashed Stanley's skull in it looked like a car crash, left him to die, then when she went back and he wasn't dead, she didn't get help she suffocated him with cotton wool balls stuffed in his mouth? No sympathy for her.

Who named him Stanley?

OP posts:
MichelleScarn · 04/07/2023 15:07

That's what's he is called in the court reports, but I do forget of how little significance the actual child in this is to some.

OP posts:
placemats · 04/07/2023 15:48

That's not the link to the previous thread. Can you remove it please?

OP posts:
placemats · 04/07/2023 15:49

MichelleScarn · 04/07/2023 15:07

That's what's he is called in the court reports, but I do forget of how little significance the actual child in this is to some.

My question was who named the baby Stanley?

You seem to be forgetting it was the father of Paris Mayo who named the baby.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 04/07/2023 15:57

@placemats Thank you for the new thread.

· Today 15:01
Feel free to add additional links, especially @AP5Diva who has a lot of very informative information.

I have a very busy week ahead but do try to keep track of all those who post on this.

And Faybian posted some links to essential threads for understanding how ‘denying pregnancy’ is a medical/ psychological syndrome in some pregnancies, with neonaticide a possible outcome, not just someone ignoring or lying about being pregnant in the more general sense which is what I thought at first.

MichelleScarn · Today 14:31

Slightly disingenuous title? Violent, cruel and horrible murder (although what murder isn't?)
of her defenceless newborn.
+Smashed Stanley's skull in it looked like a car crash, left him to die, then when she went back and he wasn't dead, she didn't get help she suffocated him with cotton wool balls stuffed in his mouth? No sympathy for her*.

Yes, all killing/murder is horrible and cruel unless to at least be quick about it, you have a gun and understand exactly where to aim. Or know where to strike a blow to the head with a heavy blunt instrument, or where to stab if you have a knife.

Given killing the baby was appalling, what method of would you have thought best hypothetically?

She may have thought stamping on his head was the fastest. The suffocating with cotton wool followed when she saw he was still alive. The judge said he was most likely unconscious by then and probably was not in pain.

You might be interested to read the various links just for more perspectives even if you still disagree.

placemats, it was her gradually dying father upstairs, whom Paris Mayo loved, even though he was abusive to her, who said he wanted the baby to be called Stanley. I can’t remember which news reports stated that about the baby’s name though.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/07/2023 21:35

I am reposting this very important section by @ArabellaScott
from page 3 of the original thread which I had not read carefully enough the first time. Original thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4833778-teenager-guilty-of-murder posted by @placemats

This is because Arabella copied and pasted some of this article that otherwise has to be signed into to read.
https://www.britishjournalofmidwifery.com/content/legal/dealing-with-incidents-of-feticide-and-infanticide-in-england-and-wales

It is very interesting to see that the CPS are never in practice charging someone with Infanticide, only Murder.

Even though Infanticide is a crime in its own right.

So no wonder Paris Mayo never got the chance to have Infanticide explained to her and plead guilty to that.

Then she would have been tried on the basis of the Murder/ or diminished responsibility dyad

with the prosecution expert emphasising, on the basis of webcam footage of her, that she did not have diminished responsibility from a mental illness and so was guilty of murder,

and the judge only at the last minute - before they retired- being able to tell the jury they could alternatively find her guilty of Infanticide.

So no, how could the jury have had any instruction in Infanticide, other than the bare legal definition.

Talk about skewing the odds. Trial by CPS. Shocking.

The CPS is just slipping Infanticide out of its proper place in criminal law, even though The Court of Appeal recognised its importance by overturning a murder verdict, in favour of Infanticide, as recently as 2018.

This is all quoted from page 3 thread 1:
ArabeIIaScott · 23/06/2023 23:40
From that same article:

'The 1938 Act, section 1 (1) provides that:
‘Where a woman by any wilful act or omission causes the death of her child being a child under the age of 12 months, but at the time of the act or omission the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child or by reason of the effect of lactation consequent upon the birth of the child, then, notwithstanding that the circumstances were such that but for this Act the offence would have amounted to murder, she shall be guilty of felony, to wit of infanticide, and may for such offence be dealt with and punished as if she had been guilty of the offence of manslaughter of the child.’

Infanticide may also be used as a fall back offence where a woman, initially charged with murder, is found not guilty by the jury who then return a verdict of infanticide instead.

In response to a recent freedom of information request, the Crown Prosecution Service do not use infanticide as an alternative offence. In all six cases where women were found guilty of infanticide or attempted infanticide they were initially charged with murder and left to the jury to decide if infanticide occurred (Crown Prosecution Service, 2014).

A verdict of infanticide allows the court to deal with the case as if the woman had been guilty of manslaughter. This gives the courts a wider range of sentencing options than the mandatory life sentence imposed for murder. In practice, a custodial sentence is rare. In R v Sainsbury (1990), a 17-year-old woman pleaded guilty to infanticide. She had become pregnant at 14 and had not told anyone. She had given birth unaided in a bathroom and taken the baby, wrapped it in a blanket and placed it in a river. The judge sentencing her said that he accepted that she was very immature and greatly disturbed by the effect of giving birth, but said that her responsibility was not removed altogether so sentenced her to 12 months' detention in a young offenders' institution.'

British Journal Of Midwifery - Dealing with incidents of feticide and infanticide in England and Wales

An American woman was recently sentenced to 20 years imprisonment by a court in Indiana for neglect of a dependent and feticide (Valenti, 2015) The 33-year-old woman attended an emergency department bleeding heavily and eventually admitted to miscarryi...

https://www.britishjournalofmidwifery.com/content/legal/dealing-with-incidents-of-feticide-and-infanticide-in-england-and-wales/#B4

ScrollingLeaves · 04/07/2023 21:45

So no wonder Paris Mayo never got the chance to have Infanticide explained to her and plead guilty to that

Then she would have been tried on the basis of the Murder/ or diminished responsibility dyad

Correction, this should say “Then because of the CPS doing this, she was tried on the basis of the Murder/or diminished responsibility Dyad”

Circumferences · 04/07/2023 21:56

Because the murder was so obviously premedicated I can't disagree with the outcome.

Gothambutnotahamster · 04/07/2023 22:55

I agree with you Op.

BreatheAndFocus · 05/07/2023 12:04

So no wonder Paris Mayo never got the chance to have Infanticide explained to her and plead guilty to that

Surely her legal team would have explained it to her? It was being reported that she refused to plead guilty to infanticide.

The issue for me in all these discussions is that there appears to be evidence showing she knew she was pregnant. She apparently told the alleged father. In hospital after Stanley’s death, her sister asked her why she hadn’t told their mother. Mayo said something like that she didn’t want to worry her.

The expert, when questioned, admitted she could be lying. Is there a limit on the number of psych experts? How are false memories distinguished from knowing lies to deny responsibility? I know this was discussed on the other thread, but nothing anyone has said has shown she had false memories, except the opinion of the expert for the defence who also admitted she might be lying.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2023 20:50

BreatheAndFocus · Today 12:04

So no wonder Paris Mayo never got the chance to have Infanticide explained to her and plead guilty to that

Surely her legal team would have explained it to her? It was being reported that she refused to plead guilty to infanticide

Where was it reported she refused to plead guilty to Infanticide please?
If possible would you link the article?

I saw someone suggest that on this thread but do not recall reading that in any of the BBC reports or newspaper articles, including some local ones where the reporter would have been present at the trial.

As far as I am aware, she was charged with murder, and Infanticide was only brought up by the judge as an alternative verdict just before the jury retired to deliberate on their verdict.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/07/2023 20:58

The expert, when questioned, admitted she could be lying

Yes, but not because he thought she was lying, but because no one can ever be sure someone is not lying.

So in a sense that question is a device to manipulate the jury’s perception on the part of the prosecution. And it works.

It is interesting to see how many people don’t understand this.

BreatheAndFocus · 05/07/2023 21:47

…because no one can ever be sure someone is not lying

Well, precisely….

AP5Diva · 06/07/2023 15:58

Thank you for starting a second thread, also having a very busy week. Have linked a lot of useful, factual links in the first thread also started by OP @placemats

Mayo should have been convicted of Infanticide not murder.
For those who do not know, infanticide is the “willfull by action or omission” killing of a baby in the first 12 months of life where the mother has a disturbed state of mind due to not having recovered from childbirth or lactation.

So Infanticide covers killing your baby deliberately with intent and even with premeditation. It covers active violent killing “willfull action” and it covers neglectful killing “willfull omission”

Infanticide’s disturbed state of mind standard of proof does not require diagnosis with any psychiatric disorder whatsoever like PPD or PPP. It is a lower standard than the diminished responsibility for homicide by reason of insanity.

Mayo more or than met this standard of proof as her medical records show

  • pregnancy denial. This is more than denying your pregnant, it is a sort of delusion in which you honestly believe you are not pregnant and things like weight gain are experienced by the sufferer as weight gain from eating to much, the baby moving as dodgy stomach cramps and so on.
  • false memories of the birth and death of her baby. This is also diagnosed by an expert. Mayo does not recall killing her baby. Her account has not changed over years of interrogation- which most adult liars couldn’t maintain much less a child. Instead of no memory, she has false memories which are created subconsciously to block out trauma.
  • tons of red flags where she fits the profile for pregnancy psychosis gone over in the other thread but again, not necessary for her to have for it to be Infanticide.

she was a minor, 15, when she did it and women much older than her in their 20s and 30s are convicted of infanticide in very similar circumstances

the Law Commission has long been aware of CPS needing to reform its procedures of charging automatically with murder and then expecting the defendant to offer infanticide as a partial defence. Several studies have shown that the most vulnerable women have ended up being convicted of murder when it should have been infanticide - and the law commission then listed several landmark cases where a murder conviction was overturned on appeal.

AP5Diva · 06/07/2023 16:10

@BreatheAndFocus
”The issue for me in all these discussions is that there appears to be evidence showing she knew she was pregnant. She apparently told the alleged father. In hospital after Stanley’s death, her sister asked her why she hadn’t told their mother. Mayo said something like that she didn’t want to worry her.”

This is a good question and actually oscillating between open acknowledgement of your pregnancy and complete denial is a known symptom of pregnancy denial- the psychotic subtype. This subtype is the one where there is also a high risk of unassisted delivery and of neonaticide (killing the baby in the first 24hrs of life) by violent means. Mayo’s actions fit this to a tee. And what pregnant 14yr old is even going to be aware that their pattern of behaviour fits the profile for psychotic pregnancy denial when most adult women on here had no idea about it?

excerpts:
“Denial of pregnancy is an important condition that is more common than expected, with an incidence at 20 weeks gestation of approximately 1 in 475. The proportion of cases persisting until delivery is about 1 in 2500, a rate similar to that of eclampsia. Denial of pregnancy poses adverse consequences including psychological distress, unassisted delivery and neonaticide.”

”On occasion, these fears are so overwhelming that women are driven to deny their pregnancy. This inappropriate defence mechanism may be so powerful, that the woman is genuinely unaware of her condition.”

”This is associated with significant risks for both the mother and fetus, including emotional disturbance, lack of antenatal care, precipitous delivery (often into the toilet bowl1,3) and neonaticide.4–7 It is suggested that there are a continuum of pregnancy denial behaviours, ranging from full awareness of pregnancy with concealment, to suspicion of pregnancy, to full-blown denial.”

“Denial of pregnancy is most simply classified as psychotic or non-psychotic.1 Those with psychotic denial tend to be chronically mentally ill (e.g. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) and remain psychotic throughout pregnancy. They may experience physical symptoms of pregnancy, but contribute these to other delusional causes. They may oscillate between open acknowledgement and emphatic denial of their pregnancy. Those with non-psychotic denial have no primary psychotic illness. They have otherwise intact reality testing and often reconstitute after delivery.”

”As described, the incidence of denial of pregnancy decreases with increasing gestation, from 1 in 475 at 20 weeks to 1 in 2500 at term. This indicates that the condition is transient for the majority of woman. Women with non-psychotic denial of pregnancy, who are not chronically mentally ill, often experience dissociation or conversion at the time of their delivery.1 In some cases, women may acknowledge pregnancy after seeing prenatal ultrasound images.10
However, there is often a poor outcome, with postpartum emotional disturbance and increased risk of fetal abuse, child neglect or neonaticide.1,4 There is also an increased incidence of precipitous or unassisted delivery (one study of 74 neonatal deaths revealed 18 cases that involved giving birth into toilets.1 The majority of these involved denial of pregnancy). Poor outcome is also due to preterm births, small for gestational age babies, increased rates of neonatal admissions and increased infant mortality.2,11,16
In July 2010, some French cases of neonaticide drew media attention;17 denial of pregnancy was thought to have played a significant role in some of these tragic situations. In instances of neonaticide, non-psychotic denial of pregnancy is most likely to result in passive death; the woman may become acutely confused and disorientated at the time of delivery, or panic after the birth and the infant may die from maternal negligence, through exposure. Psychotic denial is more likely to be associated with active killing, by means such as suffocation or strangulation.
Denied pregnancies have a statistically significant worse outcome compared with a normal group; at least some of these poor outcomes are potentially avoidable.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3128877/

Denial of pregnancy – a literature review and discussion of ethical and legal issues

Denial of pregnancy is an important condition that is more common than expected, with an incidence at 20 weeks gestation of approximately 1 in 475. The proportion of cases persisting until delivery is about 1 in 2500, a rate similar to that of eclampsi...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3128877/

ScrollingLeaves · 07/07/2023 20:58

BreatheAndFocus · 05/07/2023 21:47
…because no one can ever be sure someone is not lying

Well, precisely….

That someone might have been lying does not mean they were….

Say you told a friend (truthfully) that you’d felt upset last night. Someone could suggest, perfectly precisely, that you could have been lying about that.

I found some links to what you mentioned regarding her referring to being pregnant:

She is alleged to have concealed both her pregnancy and her birth, claiming she was unaware she was carrying, despite asking her mother, just weeks before delivery, “what a half-Chinese, half-English baby would look like”, Jonas Hankin KC, prosecuting, told Worcester Crown Court on Friday.
(The Independent 12 May)

This as it stands is simply a question. There are no other references to her having had a Chinese boyfriend or that baby Stanley looked partly oriental which the prosecution surely would have known and added if he had.

Former Detective Constable David Thomas told a Worcester Crown Court jury on Wednesday about a conversation he sat in on between Mayo and a maternity ward doctor, in hospital, on March 24, 2019.

Mayo is said to have told the doctor(I) didn’t think I was pregnant but told him …(the boy she wrongly thought was the father) I could be – he wasn’t interested”.
(The Herald Scotland 17 May)

Mr Thomas was asked about a final entry he had made in his notebook about the conversation, which read: “Sounds like she thought she might be pregnant, but was in denial.

He then told jurors he later separatelyclarifiedthose points with Dr Dawson, *without Mayo being present^.

Dr Dawson believed that Paris had been in denial during her pregnancy,” Mr Thomas said.
Which is why it is not clear whether she knew about it – or not.

Pregnancy | The Independent

The latest breaking news, comment and features from The Independent.

https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/pregnancy

AP5Diva · 08/07/2023 07:44

asking her mother, just weeks before delivery, “what a half-Chinese, half-English baby would look like”, Jonas Hankin KC, prosecuting, told Worcester Crown Court on Friday. This as it stands is simply a question. There are no other references to her having had a Chinese boyfriend or that baby Stanley looked partly oriental which the prosecution surely would have known and added if he had.

True, and per the literature review I posted with pregnancy denial you can have moments where you acknowledge the pregnancy before sinking right back into the delusion you are not pregnant.

To be fair though, you cannot tell if a mixed race baby looks partially East Asian or not. The morphology is not distinct enough for forensic visual identification. There’d have to be a DNA ethnicity test.

BreatheAndFocus · 08/07/2023 17:58

There are no other references to her having had a Chinese boyfriend or that baby Stanley looked partly oriental which the prosecution surely would have known and added if he had

The real father was misidentified by Mayo. Therefore her question above could have referred to the boy she thought was the father but wasn’t. Also, babies with one Chinese parent don’t necessarily stand out. I’m sure they did DNA Stanley as that’s how they found out who the real father was. Why would the prosecution have added that Stanley was half-Chinese? And he wouldn’t have been anyway because Mayo got the father wrong.

BreatheAndFocus · 08/07/2023 18:17

That someone might have been lying does not mean they were….

Of course, it doesn’t. The point is that Mayo could have been lying (and could not). Clearly the jury thought she was lying. Only Mayo knows the answer to that, but evidence was provided by both prosecution and defence, and the jury went for what they believed was true/correct.

BreatheAndFocus · 08/07/2023 18:49

This is a good question and actually oscillating between open acknowledgement of your pregnancy and complete denial is a known symptom of pregnancy denial- the psychotic subtype. This subtype is the one where there is also a high risk of unassisted delivery and of neonaticide (killing the baby in the first 24hrs of life) by violent means. Mayo’s actions fit this to a tee

Thank you, and thank you for your explanation. I was interested to read that the denial could be oscillating. However, surely if Mayo was psychotic, that would have been spotted either shortly before or shortly after the birth.

Those with psychotic denial tend to be chronically mentally ill (e.g. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) and remain psychotic throughout pregnancy

That would have been noticeable surely? She was at school, she saw a GP, she saw her family and friends, etc. I’ve seen two people with psychosis, both at an early stage and it was noticeable to me and I’m not a medical professional. If the GP had had even a suspicion of that, she’d have put it in the notes and the defence would have used that.

I don’t understand why you think she was psychotic? What evidence was there to suggest that? The way Stanley was killed? Yes, but an angry person could kill in the same way.