Petitioning Parliament to ban males from attempting to breastfeed infants

[zibzibara]

I am considering starting a petition on the https://petition.parliament.uk to ask the government to make a criminal offence for any male attempting to breastfeed an infant from his own nipples.

I've never started a petition before and am wondering if anyone has any tips on how to write this so it doesn't get rejected and encourages people to sign? Would love to hear any advice anyone here can offer!

I'm also concerned about my personal info being revealed on the petition website, does anyone know if there's a way of withholding identity when the petition gets published?

I've started several petitions. You need 5 sponsors who will sign the petition for it to go live. They should be told that you can see the sponsors names.
The subject needs to be within the remit of the HOC, and the petition does have to be carefully worded. It needs to do the intended job without any unintended effects.
For example, it should not be made illegal to check if a baby is hungry by putting a finger in its mouth.
The intended effect is to stop the NHS, the @NSPCC, and breastfeeding groups from encouraging men from suckling children or turning a blind eye to that behaviour.
(I can't fucking believe I just had to type that.)

So how about 'recognise that a man suckling a child is child abuse' for the title, and something like;
''A mothers body adjusts breast milk to meet the needs of the child.
Using a suckling child for validation or pleasure is child abuse, it is not for the benefit of the child, organisations should not support men (even with a GRC) suckling children''
as the text.

I don't think a petition is what's needed here:

• If it's child abuse, then it is already covered under existing laws.

• And if it is not child abuse, what would the rationale for banning it be?

Unless you're saying it's not child abuse and it's something else, I don't see what good a petition would do. It seems like it's more a case of querying why social services, the NHS etc are not recognising it as potentially harmful to the child.

There can't possibly be robust evidence on the long-term outcomes for the child, so on what evidence are the medical professionals involved with the baby basing their view that this is to be encouraged?

I would start by researching NHS guidance on this and delving down into the clinical evidence base and guidance for this from a child health perspective and work through it from there, OP.

The breastfeeding transwomen from ITV news article is here shown wearing nipple clamps. They obviously have an interest in fetishising breasts and further indicating that they are using the baby for validation or worse.

• If it's child abuse, then it is already covered under existing laws.

Thats why I used the word 'recognise' in the suggested title. Sometimes laws mention specific examples. Its possible this could just be added to existing laws.

At the moment, organisations are treating it as benign or desirable. They need clear guidance that it is neither.

Yes, that makes sense Thelnebriati. And I can see the benefits of a petition as a discussion piece and to raise awareness, even if the examples don't make it into legislation.

More generally, what seems bizarre is that the NHS website says "you will be fully supported" if you choose to "chestfeed", but the only case studies I can find from a quick google are about the ability of a male to produce milk.

It seems so bizarre that everyone would focus on whether a male can produce milk and no-one seems to have asked "yes, but is it actually safe and beneficial for a baby to drink it?".

The world has gone mad.

The NSPCC should have all their powers removed and be disbanded. I've long said it. Vile organisation and captured by evil.

I have a feeling “chest feeding” will include female to male transitioners

This isn’t about “feeding” babies. It’s about men getting babies to suck their erogenous zones.

https://lactationnetwork.com/blog/breastfeeding-faq-for-trans-and-non-binary-parents/

Can I breastfeed if I was assigned male at birth?

Yes, you can. You don’t have to have ovaries or a uterus to breastfeed. The hormones responsible for milk production (prolactin) and milk ejection (oxytocin) are released from the pituitary gland at the base of both the male and female brain. Some trans women and non-binary parents have a full milk supply.

This is sick.

Why the f would a bloke a) take drugs to try to produce milk and b) try to feed it to a baby? It is so deranged.

The world is screwed up.

It is shameful that so many people are devoting all their waking hours to their fantasy lives like this. Why don’t they want to do something worthwhile with their lives? Just wasting all their bloody time dicking and perving around with no benefit to humanity and abusing other people as props in their fantasies.

As per source a couple posts above, people assigned male at birth can produce breastmilk.

You seem to be implying it's only done for some sort of sexual gratification. Without proof and with implication only, this can be seen as hateful and transphobic, and I would gladly report any petitions you make on these grounds.

It’s randomly asserted on various internet pages that men can breastfeed - but this isn’t actually supported by much, if any, actual evidence beyond a few anecdotal cases with dubious data. I’d say that it has a big chance of being a modern urban myth, to be honest. In even the couple of rather dubious papers that exist, it’s acknowledged that not much liquid was produced - certainly not enough to fully feed a baby.

So, assuming that it’s not being done out of necessity, and that the baby will need formula (or breast milk from a biological woman) to fulfil its nutritional needs, what degree of difference is there between:
— doing it for fetish reasons
— doing it to “validate” an identity/have the “experience” of feeding?
In both these cases it’s being done to satisfy an adult’s desires, and not for the benefit of the baby, isn’t it? The baby is being used by the adult. Why is doing it for “identity” or “validation” somehow A-OK rather than doing it for an erotic thrill? In both cases the baby is being used to meet a grown adult’s desires/wants. The act is the same whatever, so why should “identity” - an idea which didn’t even exist in contemporary terms until the mid-twentieth century - be some kind of sacred cow that transforms an act of erotic abuse into something tickety-boo?

And, more importantly, how could we tell? If blokes start going about getting kids to suck their nipples, do we just believe them when they say “oh no, it does nothing for me sexually, guv - I’m just doing it to appease my inner womanly essence”?

Finally — many, if not most, women in Western countries do not actually breastfeed. So why is it so essential as a form of womanly validation for transwomen? Why isn’t formula enough? That’s rather suspicious given that we are constantly being told off for “biological essentialism”. Makes one suspect the whole ideological edifice might be a load of hyperbole, contradictions and pretence, no?

I think a petition for a moratorium on inducing lactation in males outside clinical trials until it is proven that the milk produced is not only safe for infant consumption, but nutritionally equivalent to breastmilk would gain more signatures and be more likely to be implemented.

If it’s obvious the milk will be shit for babies, then the research will prove it and a ban based on child neglect would then be easily forthcoming without petitions, without it being assumed it’s due to disgust.

There are societies where men regularly allow infants to suckle while the mother is away. This provides comfort to the baby in the absence of the mother.
An outright ban isn't needed what is needed is clear guidance and execution of current child abuse laws that do not hide behind gender nonsense.

I don't think citing societies that are not part our our own western culture is helpful actually.
I mean, marriage is allowed in some cultures when a female is just a young child. FGM is carried out in some cultures. Multiple marriages are allowed in some cultures. There are cultures where women are second class citizens.
It doesn't make it right or applicable to the way of life in OUR society.

This sounds a good idea

yep

that's one I'd sign

get the medical establishment to stop enabling men to stick their nipples in babies mouths until someone can prove that it brings any benefit to the baby (which they won't be able to)

This question was raised in parliament yesterday and Suella Braverman indicated that she clearly doesn't know the NHS says biological males can breastfeed and that they support it.

Therefore, I think any petition needs to quote the official NHS advice to link it back to that. This is because, presumably, this is what other organisations are relying on to conclude that it's fine and not potentially harmful to the child. Furthermore, the fact the NHS is already condoning and encouraging male breastfeeding needs to be more widely known as even the government doesn't realise the NHS is saying this, which is why it's currently being treated as an urban myth as opposed to official NHS advice.

I also think a FOI request to NHS England or whoever runs the website on what their evidence base is for their advice would be helpful. And I guess pressing local MPs for more questions to be asked of the NHS.

This feels quite similar to the previous NHS guidance on gender identity before they were forced to delete the unsupported claims from gender identity idealogues, and my feeling is that the fact the NHS is promoting this is what needs to be the focus, as obviously people are going to assume it's based on robust evidence, just as parents of distressed children did when the NHS website advised said unsupported nonsense about gender identity.

This implies that the concerns are all about the composition of the breast milk. What if they did find that milk from trans women is safe? Would you be fine with it then? Considering how many people are mentioning fetishes and paraphilias, I think that's what people actually care about and the milk composition thing is just a way of making the petition sound reasonable. Which, actually, you're implying in your second paragraph. In fact you're very strongly implying that in your second paragraph and I didn't notice it when I first read it.
Tbh I think if everyone's main concern was the safety of the drugs used to induce lactation there would be a bit of intellectual curiosity about that in the discourse. It comes across more like an attempt at a logical justification for a disgust reaction.

Women who adopt in the UK do not do this. This would rightly be seen by social workers as a massive red flag, because it's about what the adult wants, not what's best for the child. I get a bit tired of adopters being used as justification for this (not saying PP were doing that, but trans activists certainly do).

From what I can see anecdotally, women who have issues with their supply are denied domperidone because it is known to risk heart arrhythmia in the baby. In fact women who struggle with breastfeeding in any way appear to get a lot less support or help than males who want to do it.

This implies that the concerns are all about the composition of the breast milk. What if they did find that milk from trans women is safe? Would you be fine with it then? Considering how many people are mentioning fetishes and paraphilias, I think that's what people actually care about and the milk composition thing is just a way of making the petition sound reasonable. Which, actually, you're implying in your second paragraph. In fact you're very strongly implying that in your second paragraph and I didn't notice it when I first read it.
Tbh I think if everyone's main concern was the safety of the drugs used to induce lactation there would be a bit of intellectual curiosity about that in the discourse. It comes across more like an attempt at a logical justification for a disgust reaction.

I don't agree that questioning the safety of the baby drinking the "milk" (if it even is the same as female breastmilk) and questioning if the baby is being used as a prop for a sexual fetish are mutually exclusive.

There are lots of issues that are raised here, and I don't feel that the physical safety of the child should be a minor one.

I think part of the misdirection that gender identity ideologues are relying on is that the focus of the current debate is around whether or not biological men can actually breastfeed (as evidenced in my post above about Suella Braverman's dismissal of the issue yesterday as nonsense because men can't breastfeed).

Gender identity ideologues are relying on the confusion and debate around whether it's even possible, because then the argument doesn't move onto the next logical question, which is "ok, so if biological men can make something that looks like milk come out of their nipples, what is its chemical composition, is it like female breastmilk and is it actually safe and beneficial for babies to be drinking whatever it is that's coming out of there?". Babies are very limited in what they can drink safely (and with adequate nutritional value) for the early months of their lives, so this is a potentially life-threatening issue.

Obviously, there is the fetish issue to address as well, and clearly that's not merely a minor issue either, but as we've seen, it's quite hard to prove that someone else is acting out a fetish when the cultural narrative is framing that as another example of prejudice, akin to people associating homosexuality with paedophilia.

Yes, obviously the fetish angle should still be highlighted, but I think the most urgent issue here is "should that tiny baby be drinking whatever it is that's coming out of that man's body?".

This practice includes the possibility of medical and psychological harms to babies (and the children they grown into) and should definitely be brought to the attention of Parliament

Yes, I am a bit puzzled by all this support that women struggling with BF get which forms the basis of the resources that seem to be being thrown at the pointless task of getting men to lactate

certainly my experience was ‘you’ve got a low supply? Oh well. Here’s how to sterilise bottles and make up formula’

and yes, I remember looking into domperidone at the time and coming to the conclusion that I wouldn’t be able to get hold of it in the UK and even if I could it would be something I was doing for me, not my baby

How would one campaign for an investigation into the chemical composition and safety of male "milk?"

I guess you would have to make sure the researchers were not captured otherwise you could have findings like "In conclusion, the levels of arsenic and mercury in our sample of transwomanmilk from 5 research subjects were found to be negligible; it's perfectly safe for babies, you bigots."

I would prefer it if it were legally clarified that this is a form of child abuse, as OP is suggesting. I don't know if the Government would do that without evidence that it's not real milk; I hope they would. Apart from the suspect motivations of the men involved, this practice should be assumed unsafe unless proven otherwise, not the reverse.

But I think this research should be done, regardless, as this practice is spreading like a meme, like transwoman "periods" did years ago, and the organisations who nod along with it need to be slapped in the face with evidence.