Anyone a lifelong feminist who wasn't a tomboy?

[HarpyValley]

This is something I increasingly muse on, as I see dozens of posts from women here who say "I could so easily have been trans" as they describe a tomboy-ish childhood.

I never really thought of myself as a tomboy. I was lucky enough to be a child in the 70s when it was - or seemed, perhaps with rose-tinted spectacles of nostalgia - perfectly normal to wear trousers and play with my toy garage one day, then a dress and play with Tiny Tears or Sindy the next. The most unease I remember having about my body at that time was that it didn't develop quickly enough compared to my friends; I was a skinny ironing board of a child well up to 14/15. I didn't have lots of friends but those I did have tended to be female rather than male. Physically I was quite risk-averse and not up for the more rough-and-tumble male-driven games. As a horse-mad child I went through phases of playing as a horse (and also a rabbit, after I read Watership Down 😄), but never actually believed I was one.

This isn't to say my childhood was idyllic and problem-free: my dad was an abusive alcoholic with a hair-trigger temper, I was bullied all the way through school, we didn't have much money. But I did grow up with the belief that I could do any job I wanted, that I should earn my own money and be independent. I knew from a very early age that I didn't want children, didn't want to play a maternal role. Then in my late teens, around Sixth Form age, I discovered feminism and never left it. I read The Women's Room, devoured Virago books, discovered Angela Carter and Margaret Atwood and Germaine Greer...I was, have always been and still am happy to declare myself a feminist, even when the word has attracted negative connotations in some people's eyes.

I've never wanted to be a boy or a man, even when exposed to sexism, sexual assault (thankfully comparatively minor) or any other sex-based discrimination. I don't think I would have been ripe to be trans as a child or teen. But I'm not 'cis'. I don't have a gender identity. I'm just me. I have always been me, and that me has always been female, regardless of any insecurities about my body I've had at various times of my life.

Can anyone else here relate?

Yes I was . 🙌

Very similar experiences (also played horses with younger sister I'm sure till around 13/14, except it became all about running a stables, designing jumps and painting basic hobby horses out of sticks and card) - except that my father wasn't abusive. I'm so sorry you experienced that.

Was quite a dare devil though. Liked bombing about on bolting horses.

Well, I can't say I have literally been a lifelong feminist, because I only started consciously thinking and feeling that way when I was about 10. I don't think I was a 'tomboy' as a kid, at least not in dress. I've always had, among my hobbies, some that seem stereotypically 'male', such as information technology/coding, electronics, railways, planes, motorcycles (but not so much cars) I'm almost fanatically interested in electrical engineering,. These things have led some girls and women to call me 'boyish' which I strongly object to.

Me. <raises hand>

Happily embraced whatever I wanted as a kid with no judgement from me or anyone else as to whether it meant anything. Dolls, dresses, jeans, trees, fixing cars with my dad, ballet, total mix. It was just me enjoying whatever I was interested in, and no pressure from adults with agendas. Raised in a belief that I'd pick a career and be financially independent, was the first person in the family ever to go to university, never mind the first female person.

I did struggle like hell with growing breasts, was not impressed with periods and had particularly horrible ones, having a female body has its downsides but without much choice I got on with it and found the resilience to manage. And another hiccup in discovering I was homosexual, but again got my head around it, as you do as you grow into young adulthood. Discovered feminism at university through a very good course in linguistics, was interested but not particularly fired up. Someone else's problem, I didn't have the life experience to get engaged.

It's been motherhood, a working life and life experience that has gradually taught me awareness of the issues that exclusively impact women and get in their way. Friends, colleagues and clients living with or escaping domestic violence, the rotten end of the stick in separations divorce and childcare, birth trauma, fighting their way through to resources for their child with SEND so often alone, different faiths and cultures meaning its very hard to access public life and manage the freedoms other women take for granted, sexual assault and harassment for the crime of being in possession of female biology in a space where a male feels entitled and sees a chance of getting away with it....

But I didn't get fed up until I saw a group of mens activists in a sexual rights movement wanting to dictate to women that their feelings mattered (and women's didn't) and they were very sad so women should abandon their own needs and take care of them, and it was very hard for them (but the women's hardships didn't matter) so women should do what they said, and that some of them getting raped, assaulted and hurt didn't matter because men would be happier, and its fine for women who have been abused, are autistic, have trauma, have faiths and cultures that can be easily 'othered' when inconvenient etc to be excluded so that men can have what they want all the time without responsibility or expectation to take equal care for others as they demand for themselves.

Now I'm bloody furious and very engaged.

That pissed me off. Hugely.

Sorry, not me.

I went through a distinct phase pre-puberty of wanting to somehow grow up into a boy/man but not because of dysphoria or hatred of being female. More because everything that I wanted to do was male dominated or didn't even exist for women (the professional version of the sports I loved playing for example) and in a very wistful childish way wanted those opportunities and knew they weren't available for me.

Of course then puberty, reality and increasing maturity hit and I was reconciled to the fact that it isn't possible to change sex. I still hated the development of my body into an adult woman's for a long time as suddenly having hips and a chest just seemed so alien and brought attention I didn't know how to handle. But I think that's very typical for girls.

I don’t think this board is a particularly representative of feminists as a group. This is not a criticism of mumsnet or this board in particular but the number of regular posters is probably relatively small in the grand scheme of things. I do not think women who have/were/are tomboys are any more likely to be feminists.

I wasn't a tomboy and wore dresses, played with dolls etc (and loved horses of course).

I think girls and young women with strong opinions and who stand up for themselves are seen as less 'feminine' by society though. At university in particular I think a lot of the boys saw me as less feminine and desirable because I said what I thought and didn't pander to them. I think it's probably given me a self image that I'm less feminine too.

Yeah, me. I should say that I really didn't want to be a woman, either - my dad was a sadistic misogynist, giving me a sad view of a woman's life. So I was innately feminist before I'd heard of it and, growing up in the 60s-70s, could see alternative futures opening up for girls.

A girl of similar character & background may well be attracted to 'trans' these days. But, y'know, I took ballet lessons and liked fashion as well as playing with Meccano & climbing trees.

My sister, on the other hand, actually announced she was a boy and would only wear shorts for two years. Thank god the 'trans' option wasn't there. She's now the ultra-feminine mother and I'm the childfree women's libber!

'I've never wanted to be a boy or a man, even when exposed to sexism, sexual assault (thankfully comparatively minor) or any other sex-based discrimination. I don't think I would have been ripe to be trans as a child or teen. But I'm not 'cis'. I don't have a gender identity. I'm just me. I have always been me, and that me has always been female, regardless of any insecurities about my body I've had at various times of my life.'

Can fully relate to all of this

I loved dresses as a child and wanted to be a princess 😂 I have extremely thick hair that my mother had no clue how to manage so she cut it short in more of a 'boy' style and I hated it so much - I was desperate for long flowy hair. When I was 10, I used to pray for my periods to start (devout Catholic family).

The only slightly iffy 'gender' moment I had was watching Baywatch on the telly as a young teen and feeling that I absolutely could not measure up to those tanned and toned bodies with massive boobs. I remember feeling that I wasn't a "good enough' girl, but I never ever questioned whether I was a boy. And then I discovered radical feminism when I was about 19 and never looked back 😁

Very gender conforming here, apart from a disturbing propensity to be very good at maths. Which I of course went to great lengths to play down as much as I could during secondary school as a girl behaving in such a way was sure to get a hard time <sigh>

Me, I guess. Loved my Sindy dolls and animals and horses. Physical coward. But also loved haring about with my friends (all female) in the woods and locality. Imagined myself as some warrior Queen heroine frequently. Played with my brothers Evil Kenivil and action man figure too. Liked the Golden Girls and the A-team. Liked dresses but never into make up or hair.

A mix, like most people.

Me. Not a tomboy, but not a girly girl. Personality wise, I demonstrate more “masculine” characteristics that feminine ones. I’d love to opt out of sexism, but I see that means opting into a different oppression because I can’t become a man.

I’m not “cis” though because I can point to as many things that at ‘woman’ about myself as I can that are ‘man’. If I had to choose, I’m non binary. But I’m not, I have a vagina. I’m a woman.

I was not a tomboy.

I also realise that I have been a feminist my whole life - I just didn't have the words to describe it.

I was girly, but wanted to wear trousers to keep me warm at school and was outraged that I couldn't. It pissed me off that as a girl I was told that I had to be more careful when out or that I had to police my own clothing choices so that I didn't "attract" the wrong attention. I lobbied hard against my school's habit of taking only boys on leadership events.

I also hung out with my girlfriends, wore girlie clothes, obsessed over my hair, watched romcoms and read every Sweet Valley High book ever written!

Yes! I’ve never felt feminine. Too arsey, too analytical, dreadful at picking up on the feelings of others. Bear a striking resemblance to a female Neanderthal without careful grooming. Never wanted to be a boy though.

but as a teenager I did assume that the other girls all felt like ‘proper’ girls, unlike me. I’ve since realised that in all likelihood not a single one of them was 100% comfortable in her skin

there’s something to be said for getting older

I wouldn’t have considered myself a tomboy, I had a train set and car racing set which I loved but I also wanted high heels and a fashion wheel. My mum put me in dresses and I really wanted shorts and jeans. I hate romcoms with a passion and if there isn’t death and destruction I probably wouldn’t want to watch it. I think most people are like me, a mix of things.

Me too. I was also a child of the 70s so pink wasn't much of a thing - clothes were mostly red, brown, green, yellow. But party dresses were long and that was fine too.

Dressing up was a popular pastime and again, we were brides, or nuns, or cowboys or racing drivers or whatever.

I wasn't allowed a cap gun (neither was my brother - my mum hates guns), but I was allowed a bow and arrow (and we made guns out of sticks and Lego or whatever anyway) and I didn't think much of cars. I had dolls and various toy household pretend things which were an extension of dressing up - I was particularly fond of my toy iron which had a plug that fastened onto a hard surface with a suction cup. My brother played house as well.

It never occurred to me not to want to be a girl. I've never given much of a shit about clothes of any type and my parents were keen for us to be outside as much as possible so we ran pretty wild doing whatever we liked.

It was when I got older that the restrictions started to come in - be ladylike and don't sit with your knees apart in school uniform which could only be a skirt or pinafore, no woodwork only sewing, no rugby only netball.

That's a really good point, and I can definitely relate to having been viewed as "not very ladylike" at times in my career when I've spoken up - I've definitely while also being on the receiving end of comments that would never be levelled at a man, e.g. 'strident', 'bossy' etc.

I wasn't a tomboy.

Always been a thrawn bugger, mind you.

same. I was a nerdy inside kid and a voracious reader who ploughed through my single mum’s feminist texts. I don’t think I could ever have fancied being a man (my father being an abusive shit didn’t help). I had a breast reduction in my early 20s and while my enormous breasts bothered teen me a good bit, mainly due to the discomfort and horrors of PE (and adult men staring when I wasn’t wearing baggy enough hoodies) they didn’t… traumatise me. God help me, I used to use them as trays for food or art supplies…

Yes, the "not ladylike" accusation is definitely something I suffered from. The fact that I wore skirts and make up and was interested in lots of the same things as my girlfriends, meant bugger all when I also dared to speak up and point out when things were unequal or unfair.

So I wasn't a tomboy at all and din't want to be one, but I didn't necessarily get treated the way my girlfriends were either. And I certainly wasn't getting my door beaten down by boys interested in me either even though, looking at things objectively, I was as attractive as any of my friends.

Neither tomboy nor girly, Played with dolls and lego, loved cooking, had a few dresses I liked, often wore jeans. Played on my swing, roller skated everywhere, best toy ever was stilts made by my dad, Read loads of stuff. Confided in the cat who was the only person who understood me. And was more interested in wild flowers than anything else.

Not me.To my shame, only discovered feminism after second child!!

Prior to that I was not like other girls/ a cool girl.

Had a v gender neutral upbringing in 80s/ 90s by "alternative" parents and largely kept away from popular culture. I'm now extremely grateful for their stance but I was perhaps unprepared for the inevitable launch into the real world as a teen.

But yeah, serious sexual assaults led to seriously risk taking behaviour. I didn't exactly want to be a man but I wanted something that I only ever saw in men. A fuck you attitude, to not care what others think of me. Hence the cool girl stuff which seemed the closest available thing at the time.

Wasn't a tomboy, I always liked dresses and fairies and collecting pretty things, alongside climbing trees and reading books. Have been a feminist since pre-teens I guess, when I developed an awareness of the world. I remember finding the Famous Five incredibly sexist. Went on to read allll the feminist theory. At no point did I want to be a boy, in fact I was terrified I might turn into one when my mum failed to explain how someone on the news was born a girl but looked like a man (this would have been early 90s).

As a young girl I was desperate for breasts 😂 then I grew them and they were a bit much! But I enjoyed being a young woman, I had a sense of the power I had and although I desperately wanted to be thin (90s Kate Moss) I never wanted to be a boy. I have always loved being a woman.

I wasn't tomboyish at all. Long hair, flowery skirts, lacey tops, loved reading and quiet, arty activities.

But from young childhood I had an overwhelming sense of the injustice wrought on women. My dad was awful to my mum (financial control, had loads of affairs, vicious negging and putdowns) and I remember clearly thinking, I'd rather have his adult life than hers - there was so much more freedom. And sexism was rife in the early eighties. When I got an Oxbridge offer and my DBro didn't, my mum said, shame you got it, not your brother as he'll need it more, being a man.

But when I got to uni (which was dominated by very self confident public school white men) I went through a brief but intense phase of wanting to be a man. It just seemed they had it all - they were listened to, respected, not constantly hit on by tutors and friends' dads and bosses.

I watched Christine & The Queens' Glasto set and thought - I wanted to be exactly like that when I was in my early twenties. Independently, because there was no trans awareness at all at the time, I considered taking steroids to make me more muscular and weightlifting to transform my fairly thin, flat chested body into a male torso. At the same time I was briefly, for a year or so, attracted to women and had few crushes. I grew out of this phase and turned out to be a boring old happy hetero woman with an obviously female-shaped body. But can't help wondering if I had entered it during the height of the trans-movement, would I have acted on the desire to look male, and got support for it?