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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 12:55

The Telegraph are really starting to pushback.

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Hoardasurass · 27/06/2023 15:48

Thanks for posting this @Lightningstrikess I don't know who this guy is but he's spot on with this article

Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 15:51

@Hoardasurass it's a powerful observation & I'm so happy to see the Telegraph all over this like the Daily Mail, Times & Gript. The tide is absolutely turning.

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BernardBlacksMolluscs · 27/06/2023 15:55

By Dr Liam Fox the Tory MP. Good piece

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 15:59

It is noticeable that aside of him pointing out that no politician seems to be able to say what a woman is - his concerns, as he lists them, do not include women.

And i agree that it affects children and we should be worried for all the reasons he lists. And i agree that it is blocking freedom of speech, insofar as we have that in the UK. But he doesn't show one iota of concern for, say, women who cannot be in a state of undress near men for religious or trauma reasons.

So yes, happy it's in the Torygraph. No not happy that women's concerns simply don't feature.

Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 16:07

@brefugee hopefully there will be follow ups but at lease it's raising awareness & ending no debate.

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Brefugee · 27/06/2023 16:09

i hope so. But even so. I want it front and centre that women are being screwed over by this. Yes, kids too, but women need attention on this. We've been screaming about the safeguarding aspect for women and children and vulnerable adults for years now.

So slightly miffed that now A Man has written about it in the torygraph, suddenly it will get attention. Even though i still want that attention.

Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 16:16

@Brefugee let's give them a chance. The DM are covering all aspects. But this just shows how much the tide is turning. Headlines like that are poweful but yes women need to be front & centre. And children obviously goes without saying, children are being failed from all corners. Their protection & safeguarding is paramount.

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Froodwithatowel · 27/06/2023 16:20

Anti family and anti women extremism.

Yup. That'll do.

Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 16:26

@Froodwithatowel it was more than we were getting 6 weeks ago! Will do nicely.

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Froodwithatowel · 27/06/2023 16:42

Its good to see this being put to the public as a balance to the endless repetition of women wanting equality of access and rights being 'anti trans'.

Without the obvious follow up that if women's equality and access is 'anti trans' then 'pro trans' would logically necessitate subordinating and oppressing women. While stating that despite this, some men become women. (But not the oppressed, subordinated kind.)

Babdoc · 27/06/2023 16:49

The Telegraph’s online demographic is split 2:1 male to female, so perhaps they cater more to male views? Having said that, the print version is more like 50/50, with a slight preponderance of females.

fdgdfgdfgdfg · 27/06/2023 17:12

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 16:09

i hope so. But even so. I want it front and centre that women are being screwed over by this. Yes, kids too, but women need attention on this. We've been screaming about the safeguarding aspect for women and children and vulnerable adults for years now.

So slightly miffed that now A Man has written about it in the torygraph, suddenly it will get attention. Even though i still want that attention.

I don't think it hurts occasionally to have an article by a man, that focuses on how this is affecting kids, rather than women.

I bring up this topic a lot with other men, down the pub, at football etc. and by and large most men are gender critical, or would be if they knew what gender critical was. The problem is that they don't think it affects them, and that the path of least resistance is to say the mantra of TWAW even though they don't believe it.

The trick is to show how it does affect them, link it to their wife, their daughter, their mother. Once they realise the harm its doing, they change their tune.

For a subset of men though, you'll get a far better reaction in linking it to their daughter than their wife. They're generally right leaning, older men, who believe that if it's a women's issue, then it's for women to sort. I don't think it's a dismissal as such, but a belief that women are capable of sorting it themselves, so it's not for men to get involved.

It's this subset that this article is targeting. Probably not on purpose, but because Liam Fox probably is one of that subset.

But we need articles like this, just like we need articles by both women and men about how this affects women. If the Telegraph was only putting out articles about this issue that only focussed on kids, then I'd agree with your point. But it's not, it's putting out articles from a number of different perspectives, and that's exactly what we need.

Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 17:15

@fdgdfgdfgdfg I will say thd Daily Mail gives more from a women's perspective it's covering the Lia Thomas scandal very well. So it's good to get this type of article also. It can reach further again. Any coverage highlighting what is going on is better than none. So keep it going Telegraph.

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TheDogthatDug · 27/06/2023 18:24

Today is the day that Hell froze over; I actually agree with something Liam Fox has said.

madamsapple · 27/06/2023 18:54

I wonder what happened to David who had a weekly column in the Telegraph not so long ago about his transitioning...anyone rememebr him?

One week he went to a funeral and the women all told him how wonderful he looked, or admired his handbag or something.

Telegraph have certainly repositioned themselves since then.

Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 19:01

TheDogthatDug · 27/06/2023 18:24

Today is the day that Hell froze over; I actually agree with something Liam Fox has said.

Strange days also
that the Daily Mail is now respected by most us mumsnetters on this thread, they are playing a blinder & upping the ante daily. Piers Morgan is also a very good advocate! Here we are.. Oh & Elon Musk too 😁

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SunnyEgg · 27/06/2023 19:03

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 16:09

i hope so. But even so. I want it front and centre that women are being screwed over by this. Yes, kids too, but women need attention on this. We've been screaming about the safeguarding aspect for women and children and vulnerable adults for years now.

So slightly miffed that now A Man has written about it in the torygraph, suddenly it will get attention. Even though i still want that attention.

I know but slightly better than no men raising it.

There were a few posts on another thread agreeing Labour men are pretty much all TWAW. That’s worse

Yummingtons · 27/06/2023 19:10

Anyone able to cut and paste the article as I cannot access it without paying to sign up to The Telegraph.

ChristinaXYZ · 27/06/2023 19:36

@brefugee @Lightningstrikess Both the Daily Telgraph and the Spectator have been brilliant on this for some time. They cover some aspect of the gender issue most issues. And the DT has Suzanne Moore regularlaly and often Julie Bindel too. I have ended up subscribing to the DT and the Spectator as a result. Several of their journalists covers thing in a knowledable way including Hayley Dixon and Ewan Somerville. And they often have other journalists writing on it too. Their sports writer Oliver Brown has been really brilliant on women's right to safety and fairness in sport.

Some examples from the last month

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/23/kemi-badenoch-rye-college-cat-gender-inspection-ofsted/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/15/sharron-davies-interview-trans-sports-athletes/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/10/gender-ideology-foster-mother-nearly-lost-children-class/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/08/oxfam-employee-gender-critical/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/08/oxfam-has-unwittingly-exposed-the-folly-of-trans-extremism/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/31/baroness-falkner-equality-human-rights-commission-timeline/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/05/27/trans-lobby-group-mermaids-helped-nhs-treatment-children/

The DT is really putting the BBC to shame.

Kemi Badenoch calls for snap inspection of school in ‘cat gender’ row

Equalities minister believes impartiality rules were breached by teaching contested beliefs as facts, such as there are ‘lots of genders’

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/23/kemi-badenoch-rye-college-cat-gender-inspection-ofsted

NoMoreAgeJokes · 27/06/2023 19:38

Yummingtons · 27/06/2023 19:10

Anyone able to cut and paste the article as I cannot access it without paying to sign up to The Telegraph.

COMMENT
Time to reject the extreme trans lobby harming our society
Facts matter, and the value of a view is not determined by the strength with which it’s held
LIAM FOX
26 June 2023 • 11:00am

It is incredible how many public figures, including our own Leader of the Opposition, have struggled to answer the simple question, “What is a woman?”. Of course, the truth is that they are almost certainly able to answer the question but are afraid to do so lest they unleash the rage of the increasingly aggressive trans-lobby.
I believe that, in a free society, people are entitled to live their lives in the way that they want, as long as it does not interfere with the freedom, safety and rights of others, particularly those younger and more vulnerable than themselves. That, surely, is a position most Conservatives should support. This must be supplemented with a staunch defence of free speech so that the issues can be openly discussed, by those with widely differing views, without the intimidation and aggressive bullying of the anti-family, anti-women extremists.
We should approach the debate around trans rights with rationality, proportion and compassion.

Rationality because facts matter, and the value of a particular view is not determined by the strength by which it is held but by reference to science and empiricism. Proportion because we cannot let the noise of an angry minority mask the fact that we are talking about a very small number of people in the population whose problems need to be addressed but who have no right to enforce views on the majority with which the majority disagrees or disapproves.
And compassion because behind all the political noise, bullying and intimidation, there are genuine individuals in pain and distress who deserve our sympathy and support.
For me, the most worrying element in the entire trans rights debate is the safety and protection of children. A recent report from the think tank Policy Exchange exposed a neglect of safeguarding at the expense of gender identity. It found that only 28 per cent of schools are reliably informing parents as soon as a child discloses feelings of gender distress and at least 19 per cent of schools are not maintaining single sex toilets.
The report also shows that 72 per cent of schools are teaching that people have a gender identity that may be different from their biological sex and 25 per cent are teaching that some people or children “may be born in the wrong body.”

Clearly, teaching unions and other representative groups should give a lot more thought to the difficult, and personally painful, tasks being faced by many teachers and less weight to the pressures coming from activists.
The medical profession should take note, too. The willingness of many clinicians to rush to agreement for surgical and hormonal treatments may reap a wild whirlwind in the future. There is a real danger that ill-thought through surgical interventions, such as double mastectomy or orchidectomy (castration) or complex hormonal treatments (that may be irreversible), will lead to increased human suffering in the long-term.
We must also protect our right to free speech. The way in which extremists in the trans movement have sought to close down debate, including on safe spaces for women, is nothing less than an attempt at brutal censorship, worthy of the most repressive regimes.

That is why all of us, whatever our views on the subject of trans rights itself, must unite in making it abundantly clear that everyone, celebrity or not, is absolutely entitled to their views and to express them freely in a free society without fear of violence or intimidation.
Proportionate, rational and compassionate debate should be our watchwords alongside a resolute defence of young people and freedom of speech. There is too much at stake to stay silent.

Dr Liam Fox is a former Defence and International Trade Secretary

flyingbuttress43 · 27/06/2023 20:48

The Telegraph are really starting to pushback.

The Telegraph have been pushing back for ages: it's just that as it is perceived as right-wing, it's not looked on favourably by many mumsnetters. It was certainly warning of the dangers of the trans ideology before the Mail caught on.

CovetedAsFuck · 27/06/2023 21:28

madamsapple · 27/06/2023 18:54

I wonder what happened to David who had a weekly column in the Telegraph not so long ago about his transitioning...anyone rememebr him?

One week he went to a funeral and the women all told him how wonderful he looked, or admired his handbag or something.

Telegraph have certainly repositioned themselves since then.

I had forgotten all about that!

He was insufferable.

Lightningstrikess · 27/06/2023 21:33

flyingbuttress43 · 27/06/2023 20:48

The Telegraph are really starting to pushback.

The Telegraph have been pushing back for ages: it's just that as it is perceived as right-wing, it's not looked on favourably by many mumsnetters. It was certainly warning of the dangers of the trans ideology before the Mail caught on.

That's good to know. It's empowering to have these publications fighting the good fight.

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PorcelinaV · 28/06/2023 05:45

Brefugee · 27/06/2023 15:59

It is noticeable that aside of him pointing out that no politician seems to be able to say what a woman is - his concerns, as he lists them, do not include women.

And i agree that it affects children and we should be worried for all the reasons he lists. And i agree that it is blocking freedom of speech, insofar as we have that in the UK. But he doesn't show one iota of concern for, say, women who cannot be in a state of undress near men for religious or trauma reasons.

So yes, happy it's in the Torygraph. No not happy that women's concerns simply don't feature.

Not sure that is fair. He does say:

"We must also protect our right to free speech. The way in which extremists in the trans movement have sought to close down debate, including on safe spaces for women..."