Teenager guilty of murder.

[placemats]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

Apart from the fact that she was raped, if consent to sex is to be a legal term, I find the prosecutions allegations appalling.

'But the prosecution alleged Mayo must have known she was pregnant but chose to deliberately conceal it because she was always planning to kill the baby.'

Perhaps Mayo didn't get early abortion help she needed. I know of one woman, who had 3 previous children, who didn't realise she was pregnant, thought it was early menopause until 4 weeks before her due date. However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

Quite frankly, it's difficult to imagine what goes through the mind of a child murderer.

Sorry, I am losing track of everyone!
Very true this was an active and violent neonaticide consistent with psychosis.

No one has yet come back to me to explain what 'fall pregnant' means. The Judge said this in his sentencing remarks.

Is it a legal term? Does it ever appear in literature or vocally during pre or antenatal assessments?

But unless you are choosing not to believe then a specialist telling you that they can clearly see the damage that has been done is not an accident and you know you were the only person there then you would have to accept you did it.

Her memory does seem a bit selective though, she had no idea she was pregnant but told the boy she thought was the father that she was.

It’s just an English form of expression referring to becoming pregnant. “To Fall pregnant” is roughly equivalent to the American form of expression “to get knocked up” albeit a bit more polite and less derogatory.

It seems to me that if this had happened in a more urban part of the UK, Mayo would have been tried as a juvenile and the charge would be infanticide and not murder.

Rural Britain still exists, along with outmoded and dangerous assumptions.

It is a common saying, I personally hate it as it smacks of "fallen woman" to me but regardless lots of people do refer to "falling pregnant."

Here's a link https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fall_pregnant

This oscillation between being aware of reality and then going back into a deluded state of denial is also part of psychotic pregnancy denial:

“Denial of pregnancy is most simply classified as psychotic or non-psychotic.1 Those with psychotic denial tend to be chronically mentally ill (e.g. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) and remain psychotic throughout pregnancy. They may experience physical symptoms of pregnancy, but contribute these to other delusional causes. They may oscillate between open acknowledgement and emphatic denial of their pregnancy...”
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3128877/

It's a phrase that has connotations of it's all the female's fault if she gets pregnant. Like there's no actual sperm involved.

Can't even begin to wonder if a Judge in the USA would use the term 'to get knocked up' when delivering sentencing remarks.

No need to apologise. I’m getting people muddled up too. However, you seem to be somewhat contradicting yourself. Having said it’s not the manner in which someone kills which determines whether it’s infanticide or murder (I agree), you then say the way of killing is consistent with infanticide.

There was, surely, no evidence of psychosis? The judge was thorough in his comments and didn’t lack sympathy for Mayo, but he made no mention of psychosis. Moreover, I haven’t seen any evidence that that was her defence.

I always thought the connotations were more that getting pregnant is a matter of accident, luck, like when you have a fall you can’t control when you fall.

But I can see the logic in “fallen woman” and the fall is meant as a bad, downwards drop in reputation and character.

As I said up thread I hate the saying, always have going back to the 60s but people do frequently use it and I don't think it is generally meant in a derogatory way even though it makes me cringe.

It is actually used quite often on this site so I assume many people see it as harmless.

Hmm, it is confusing, but neonaticide is by definition that act of killing a newborn (first 24hrs). Infanticide is the act of killing a baby under 12months old. These are terms just for killing a victim of a certain age or relation, like homicide or filicide or patricide.

The crime called infanticide is different from the killing act of infanticide and has its own definition. Infanticide can result in either being convicted of murder or infanticide. The manner of killing doesn’t determine which crime you are convicted of…it’s all the facts. In other words passive doesn’t equate to the crime of infanticide while violent equates to the crime of murder.

It can be either passive or violent and still the crime of infanticide or murder.

As with so much else about this case, the manner of killing was consistent with a mother suffering from psychosis:
In instances of neonaticide, non-psychotic denial of pregnancy is most likely to result in passive death; the woman may become acutely confused and disorientated at the time of delivery, or panic after the birth and the infant may die from maternal negligence, through exposure. Psychotic denial is more likely to be associated with active killing, by means such as suffocation or strangulation.

I haven’t seen it in her defence despite her showing tons of red flags for psychosis. The judge certainly sharply criticised the un professionalism and overt bias of the psychiatrist the prosecution relied on. I think it could well be the basis for an appeal.

Woah there. We don't know if she was raped first of all. It was reported as a 'boy' and it's not clear whether the situation would be coercive control (rape).

And the birth certainly didn't "result" in death - she intentionally killed him. I don't think anyone doubts that whatsoever.

The coroner is an expert and they know better than anyone here. If this was any other case, nobody would be arguing with their conclusions.

Not wanting to tel your parents is not an adequate reason for doing this. You can feel sorry, but the idea that this is the normal route teenage girls go down is just a load of rubbish.

Of course she needs to be locked up. You can't let someone who violently murders a baby walk free, whether it's murder or infanticide!

It's a phrase that has connotations of it's all the female's fault if she gets pregnant. Like there's no actual sperm involved.

Fall pregnant is a perfectly valid phrase. 'I fell pregnant with Oliver after 7 months of trying'. People use it to describe themselves.

If I don't like it, fine, but the judge is using a normal phrase.

In this case, fall pregnant is used to hint at it being an unfortunate outcome. Which is perfectly reasonable given the circumstances. It would be risky.

The Judge is due for retirement soon.

Sure the phrase might well be used in normal, everyday parlance, but in sentencing remarks?

Especially given the gravity of the situation.

I really think you’re giving this too much headspace. It’s just a figure of speech

We don't know if she was raped first of all
We know that she was sexually active from thirteen which demonstrates that she wasn't properly supervised or cared for. She wasn't old enough to give consent at 13, 14 or 15.
Not wanting to tel your parents is not an adequate reason for doing this.
If you are calm and rational, you might make all the right decisions. If you're a child who has already made unhelpful decisions and tried to hide from the consequences, your head might be completely fucked. 'Adequate reason' wouldn't apply.

She conceived at 14.5, to a boy who pressured her to do without a condom.

It's not violent but it's not consensual either.

That's what she's saying. She's hardly shown herself to be an honest person.

What do her supporters think the difference between this girl and every other girl who has found themselves in the same situation and not chosen to violently murder their children?

Considering teen/unwanted pregnancy is hardly uncommon and a lot of pregnant teens don't have happy home lives, why do they not all resort to violent murder?

Rape has a specific meaning and we have nothing suggesting that's what happened. Mayo didn't say she was raped or felt that way. We don't need to grasp at straws on every count, it's too much.

Secondly, Pp implied that this was the natural consequence of getting pregnant at this age. I can tell you it's not. Many of us have been there and almost every single teen girl who's pregnant feels desperate, embarrassed or deeply ashamed. From my own upbringing, being pregnant as a teenager was seen as worse than having a criminal record, seriously bad and immoral. Yet, cases like this are so rare. Its the idea that that is just what happens. It's not.