Teenager guilty of murder.

[placemats]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

Apart from the fact that she was raped, if consent to sex is to be a legal term, I find the prosecutions allegations appalling.

'But the prosecution alleged Mayo must have known she was pregnant but chose to deliberately conceal it because she was always planning to kill the baby.'

Perhaps Mayo didn't get early abortion help she needed. I know of one woman, who had 3 previous children, who didn't realise she was pregnant, thought it was early menopause until 4 weeks before her due date. However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

Different crimes are different. Context matters. There's not one 'something bad' that covers all crimes, goodness me.

And the obvious reaction to that is to stamp on the baby's head and stuff cottonwool in it's mouth and spend 2 hrs killing the poor little thing.

Four years on and she is still lying, still refusing to admit what she did. Of course she has to live with that for the rest of her life but at least she has a life.

Yeah, everything I've read suggests that infanticide committed by mothers experiencing postpartum psychosis is extremely rare. We don't even know if this girl was. And the level of violence inflicted by her on her defenceless baby is something else.

I don't know how or why people have come to the conclusion that psychosis was behind this when it actually seems more likely that she had always planned to kill her child.

It doesn't start the minute the baby is born does it? I have known 2 women who were hospitalised because of it and one who committed murder (not the baby) and they all started with PND and it developed into to psychosis. Can it happen instantly?

You think James Bulgers murderers could he reformed?
Wow.

I am so profoundly disturbed by the amount of mumsnet users who can defend this murderer on the basis that she was a child. Forgetting the victim was a defenceless innocent newborn.

It doesn't start the minute the baby is born does it? I have known 2 women who were hospitalised because of it and one who committed murder (not the baby) and they all started with PND and it developed into to psychosis. Can it happen instantly?

From what I understand, it usually starts within days. Seems unlikely that this girl was planning on either keeping her child or giving him up for adoption until the minute she gave birth before suddenly having a psychotic episode and killing him very violently.

It's literally sickening. The story is deeply upsetting as it is without supposed 'feminists' desperately trying to defend this murderer simply because they are female. There is some serious reaching going on.

I agree. Wasn't expecting a thread like this about it

I think you're totally right. It doesn't ring true that there was any post partum psychosis. That's not how it manifests. Seems very unlikely here.

I'm relieved I'm not alone in not feeling sad for anyone but the child in this case. I sometimes feel as though I'm in a parallel universe on mumsnet.

She wouldn't of been convicted of murder if she had been diagnosed with post partum psychosis. And it would of been very clear she had psychosis at the time. It's not something you can hide.

Weveforgottenwhoweare · Today 21:46
You think James Bulgers murderers could he reformed?
Wow.

I am not sure, but there is more chance with children at the age they were at the time of their crime than with adults I think.

Your comment shows you possibly may not have seen some preceding points about child murderers.

I haven't rtft but there's nothing I could read that could convince me those two at any point after killing James Bulger were they able to be reformed.

Not all damage can be repaired. Naive at best to think otherwise.

I feel like that often here. You are not alone but I suspect we are a minority!

I haven't rtft but there's nothing I could read that could convince me those two at any point after killing James Bulger were they able to be reformed.

They were 11. What do you think should have happened them? Gone to prison for life at age 11? Death penalty? Transfer to adult prison for 20 years at age 18. What?

They were let out on parole eventually if I remember correctly. Did they both go on to murder again?

Isn't Venables a convicted paedophile

Venables was sent back to prison in 2010 and 2017 for possessing indecent images of children, and was refused parole in 2020.

Actually, yeah I don't think you can violently murder a child as a child yourself and spend a little bit of time inside then miraculously return to public as a nice normal functioning member of society. I think it's insane if you think otherwise.

So what do you think should have happened? Should both of them have been sent to prison for the rest of their lives aged 11?

Leaving aside the "little bit of time inside" and "nice normal functioning" stuff which isn't what I or anyone else said or thought - we all know those boys were deeply damaged kids from terrible backgrounds who committed an horrendous crime. But does that mean the british justice system should have given up on them at age 11? Shouldn't even make an attempt to turn them around- just punish, lock them up and throw away the key because they can never be saved?

Is that what you'd have done?

There is such a thing as antenatal psychosis that starts during pregnancy, and is exacerbated by childbirth and continues straight away into post partum psychosis.

Psychosis can begin at any time during pregnancy, it is not true that it only happens days, weeks or months after the birth.

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg192/chapter/introduction
”Psychosis can re‑emerge or be exacerbated during pregnancy and the postnatal period.”

https://www.babycentre.co.uk/blog/mum_stories/i-experienced-psychosis-during-pregnancy
Here is a post by a woman who suffered psychosis in pregnancy. She got help. If Mayo did have psychosis, it is entirely possible for it to have started during pregnancy and we know she never sought help, so there is no reason why she could not have had psychosis during and immediately after the birth.

How so? She was entirely alone. Who would it have been clear to?
Her family who had already decided she was “useless and no daughter of mine”?

Yes it is rare, but two thirds of the mothers that do commit infanticide ARE suffering from psychosis. So it is actually a 2:1 odds that she did not plan to kill her baby.

They took a child's life in the most heinous way. They should have their right to a free life removed, ie life in prison. Whilst inside I think it would be appropriate to provide therapeutic services. I wonder if you would still advocate for their freedom if you were James Bulgers parent? Do you genuinely imagine these two men are safe around children? Would you be happy to have your child grow up on on same street as the one Robert Thompson currently resides?

The law is unsure how to separate intent from illness in a situation with postpartum psychosis yet you seem sure. Do explain.

Actually, yeah I don't think you can violently murder a child as a child yourself and spend a little bit of time inside then miraculously return to public as a nice normal functioning member of society. I think it's insane if you think otherwise.

Of course you can’t. It would take a lot of work and time. There’d be no miracle. Nothing would ever be normal.

Those boys were just 10. What lives had they experienced before?

Were their brains formed yet?

I saw this interesting question mentioned in this article www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/disturbing-reminder
“How would you feel if you were to be tried by a jury of 10 year olds?”